How do you know lasers will one shot people?
how do you know the plasma rifle is 40 watts?
I can start saying irrelvent stuff also.

How do I know? Because a powerful enough laser burns through human flesh like it doesn't exists, considering these things are powered by miniature fusion reactors it's safe to say they are pretty effing powerful lasers.

And the 40 watt thing was obviously facetious, and a reference to The Terminator. Remember the gun store scene?

Seriously thou spray why do u hate Worlockd with such a passion?lol

I think the thing most people don't get about .50BMG is that it's not a "rifle" round....it's a light cannon round developed to be used in a crew-served Anti-Tank weapon developed to fight the First generation Tanks. The M2 is called a machinegun, but it's really a light automatic cannon. While Tank design rapidly made it obsolete as a Anti-Tank round it turned out to have so many other uses it's been with us ever since and might be for another century.

The point is, AMR is too weak compare to other guns.....especially the .45-70 trio.

Even without Cowboy, a Hunting Revolver would make AMR seems silly despite only having half the damage.

Of course we don't know what Handheld laser or plasma weapons' TKO, but what we can do is look at something we have, than work on them.

about the plasma weapons...


1.21 GIGAWATTZ!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!

by reason and logic 50 bmg has the power to kill you without even touchign you lol like a foot away and it will convert you into giblets .The 50bmg if it was portrayed correctly would vaporize all animals ingame bar none.It except for the guass has the most damage on a single area ingame .*fatman not included*I hope they give us depleted uranium rounds or tungsten cored .

And if u think the 50bmg is anything the guass would if realistic cut thru any and all animals if their was a tank it would be dead in one shot no bs.anyways warlockd and spray behave your selves or time out in the corner with the dunce hat

The notion that bullets can kill you from a near miss (presumably from the pressure wave created by the supersonic projectile) is an urban myth. Deafened, wet, and thanking your god of choice, sure. But not killed.

The gauss rifle is kind of an interesting thing, in that it's a tiny tiny projectile (logistically irrelevant in size; projectiles are permanently loaded "for free" inside the weapon) moving at several Mach factors. I suspect the gauss rifle would have less actual penetration than you might think, since the projectile is going to hit the target and melt or plasmify from the rapid deceleration. It would more or less ignore any man-portable body armor, but because the projectile is moving too fast to have any real cohesion, it would rapidly disintegrate in the target. Moderate to low penetration regardless of intervening materials, with the wound channel as a widening cone of seared and minced flesh from the debris of the projectile. Or so I believe with my limited understanding of railguns and high-speed physics.

Actually it would depend on the range and the where it hits.
The longer the range the less focused the beam, thus hitting a larger area with less (more distributed) power. If the beam misses any vital organs it can actually cauterize the wound and leave the target relatively well of compared to a bullet who's damage is absorbed by the whole body. Of course there's heat damage to consider which would be absorbed by the body, but it's a lot less messy than say a kinetic gun.

Point 1: I know

Point 2: well bullet travel in super-sonic speed as well. You also have to realize steel is actually tougher (harder to break) in higher temperature (like 400C IIRC), and atmospheric burn out takes quite a while. Needless to say Gauss projectile should be at its optimal speed.

Anyways, I don't believe this thread is about EW; it is about balance within Gun category, especially the rifles.

Should be? With a rail gun, we're probably talking about high hypersonic speeds (on the order of several kms/sec). And small objects have a tendency to vaporize on impact at those speeds, steel or not.

And the projectile is going to be small, to minimize recoil but maximize kinetic energy.

What got the sniper rifle changed wasnt its power vs anouther rifle. It was its power by itself vs critters.

What got say the laser rifle changed wasnt its lack of power vs a gun.. it was its lack of power vs critters. It simply didnt do the job.


Ive found when I bable at sawyer.. and boy have I ever... That I lose instantly the instant I talk about perks in a gun talk or ammo for that matter. I also lose if I talk about any OTHER gun.


But you win when you talk about the gun just doing.. or not doing its job. assuming your right that is.. I must admit ive not been right fairly often when babbling at sawyer...

Is the sniper rifle doing its job? What IS its job? Is its job now a bit too narrow? How so?

I think some people have lost sight that this is a game and not real life. You can't have too much realism in a game or it ruins balance. Unless of course you want my straight razor to kill everyone in one hit? If you want realism then I guess no more perks or traits. Unless of course there is some super gene out there that makes my Brush Gun do more damage than your Brush Gun? I can see accuracy maybe but not changing the base power of a weapon. You can shoot a gun a billion times and you will not cause more damage than what the gun is capable of.

This is a strawman. Nobody is demanding more realism - all the talk about realism was with regards to a community mod.

Again, the Sniper Rifle does comparable damage to the Cowboy Repeater (and actually loses against armored targets). The Trail Carbine does up to 50% more damage - the more armored the target is, the bigger the lead. The Brush Rifle does approximately the same amount of damage as the AMR.

Those are just the DAM stats. With the exception of spread, all three Cowboy rifles absolutely destroy their military counter-parts in every other stat: rate-of-fire, DPS, cost in caps, weight, AP cost, item HP, skill/strength requirements.

With regards to the patch, it has always been an issue about balance - balance with OTHER guns, not against targets. You can't just balance a single gun (the sniper) against its targets but leave every other gun balanced against each other - which is exactly what happened.

To say that we are demanding excessive realism is completely missing the point of this SR vs. Cowboy rifles discussion.

I'm not missing the point of anything and I never said anyone demanded any kind of excessive realism.

We already had our discussion on this and I think we agreed that the balance of all guns is off. I thought the Sniper Rifle prepatch was fine except for the critical multi. I still thought it was overpowered but so were all guns. I think the Sniper Rifle is the most balanced gun now, but as you say they should have balanced all the guns and not just one. In my opinion get rid of the awful iron sights and the Brush Gun is 100x better than any weapon. It is so good that I have to avoid using it because it makes the game too easy and that's a shame because I also think it is the best looking weapon. The AMR is also another nicely balanced weapon, it should kill almost always in 1 hit which it does. They need to balance the rest of the guns around the AMR and Sniper Rifle. AMR is supposed to be a beast compared to the rest of the weapons and it's really not.

The point I was trying to make is that someone, and not you, who also in another thread made a fool of himself does not know the difference between reality and a game world. You can't look at a game's weapon damage and compare it to a real world weapon when 90 percent of this game has nothing to do with real world.

I belive the gauss rifle is super-heated and the projectile moves very fast and would burn throu armor and skin, who knows.

Does the cowboy repeater overdeliver WITHOUT the cowboy perk? No.

Does the trail carbine overdeliver without the cowboy perk? No.

Does the sniper rifle do its job? Yes.

I dont see you winning this.

Compared to the Sniper rifle with no perks:
Does the cowboy repeater overdeliver WITHOUT the cowboy perk?
Unique cowboy repeater varient has better dps and has a better scope than the sniper rifle(my opnion about scope).One cap a bullet compared to 3,repair is cheaper,non-unique has same everything but a scope(all gun mods equiped).
Does the trail carbine overdeliver without the cowboy perk?
Yes it does actully.3 higher base DAM and higher dps.2 caps a bullet compared to 3.
Does the sniper rifle do its job?
Yes,but under powerd.
Check the wiki.
To add another thing,the unique sniper rifle has LOWER base DAM than the regular sniper rifle,42 compared to 40.
All the weapons are cheaper than the sniper rifle.
The only thing the sniper has that these dont is a Silencer

Win what? The only one who thinks there is anything to "win" is you.

Again, my numbers don't lie. But you're free to ignore them.

We have all the proof we need already.
The sniper rifle and all .308 weapons,are underpowerd.(besides this machine)

win a change in the sniper rifle in next patch thats what.

and spraynpray again by itself is the cowboy repeater overpowewred? By itself is the trail carbine overpowered? By itself is the sniper rifle not doing its job?

If I understand it correctly, the projectile from a hyper-velocity solid-projectile weapon is designed to plasmafy (I just made that word up. Nice, huh?) on contact with the target. Much like a HEAT round, the plasma wave created turns the target into the damaging projectile, just like a HEAT round jets the tank's armor inside to do the damage. So when you get hit with the gauss rifle, your skin and bones turn to plasma and explode through your body from the leftover energy. At least that''s my understanding. So, yeah, they vaporize. They vaporize bits of you.

After doind some very tedious research looking a them, I would say the cowboy repeater overperforms a little (or maybe the 5.56 weapons underperform dramatically), while the Trail Carbine and Sniper/Hunter perform close enough, without cowboy perk. My gripe, as laid out in thread #1 is that the pistol rounds lose power at any range quickly, are much, much less accurate, and have a very hard time penetrating armor, while the rifle rounds don't realize the advantage of their greater accuracy and penetration capabilities. I personally think the way to fix this is not to treat the guns that shoot pistol rounds like they shoot rifle rounds and give them spread numbers accordingly, and add some DT bypass in any high velocity, non-expanding round. Here are the spread numbers of the guns in question, next to some ballistic figures from the research I've cobbled together (these figures are at 500y, with all rifles zeroed @200y):

Weapon_____________Spread#______Drop (in)_____Drift (in)
Cowboy Repeater________.04_________220.7________66.2
Trail Carbine____________.035________227.8________98.1
Hunting Rifle____________.03__________47.2________23.4
Sniper Rifle_____________.02__________47.2________23.4
This Machine____________.50_________47.2________23.4

I threw in This Machine as a standard to compare the relative accuracy of the cowboy guns to the other .308 guns. This Machine is over 10 times less accurate than the cowboy guns, while they are only a fracion less accurate than the high velociy, high performance bullet .308 guns. Changing lever action rifle spread to around .5 (most pistols are above .5) would make it so that you could hit targets close with good terminal effect, while not being able to use them as frickin sniper rifles out to long ranges.
-Gunny out.

If you want an answer, yes, with no Cowboy perk, the Cowboy Repeater still compares very favorably to the Sniper Rifle. The basic DAM is 35 vs. 42, and the DPS of both weapons are effectively equal.

For a weapon that people can pick up before the Service Rifle (at worst, on the road to Nipton before you meet Vulpe), yes, the Cowboy Repeater is overpowered relative to the sniper rifle.

Factor in Handloader, and then the sniper rifle does more damage against unarmored targets (with its better 1.5X DAM modifier), with convergence of both weapons as target DT increases (.357 handload has a -3 DT bypass).

With regards to the TC vs. SR debate, the TC already does more DAM/shot than the SR, without perks. That is, even without Cowboy, the TC is shot-per-shot more damaging than the SR (45 vs. 42). With the handloads, this lead increases against armored targets, because the .44 SWC has a -6DT bypass, although JSP ammo gives the SR an edge on unarmored targets (1.5x DAM vs. 1.2x).

I don't get why you make such a big deal out of the Cowboy perk. It's an excellent perk to get - the requirements are easy and low level, so it's not hard to get either. IMO, everyone who specializes in guns and/or explosives should get it, even if they don't use lever-action weapons.

That's not how HEAT rounds work. The target is not turned into a projectile - HEAT warheads use a shaped-charge that creates a hypersonic, superplastic slug of metal (originating from the warhead) to punch through armor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_explosive_anti-tank_warhead

The superplastic particle stream (that kills tanks) originates from the missile.

Which, as I understand it, must turn the armor difectly in front of it into a superplastic paricle stream, not terribly unlike my punching a hole through plate steel with a cutting torch or plasma cutter, which I just love to do, and thereby taking with it the mass of armor that it removed from the outside of the tank to the inside. If you have ever cut steel, as I'm sure many here have, you know you don't cut it with the torch flame itself, you use plasma created by the torch to melt the steel around it. Now, you can quote the wiki, which I'm sure has some fine information, but I've had the pleasure of going through training and shooting HEAT warheads and one thing always mentioned is the inclusion of the armor in the particle stream adding to the material mucking about on the wrong side of the tank (for the occupants, at least) Now, if you don't believe me, you probably won't believe my brother either, who shot at tanks (from another tank. Silliness if you ask an old grunt) for a living for 20 years and he, I reckon, from his not small font of information might just know a thing or two.

Anyways, this is a bit of a digression from sniper rifles and cowboy guns and I would much rather hear your comments on the edit I made to that post of mine showing the accuracy figures on the weapons in question.

-Gunny out.