I'm so glad you quoted that, I accidentally edited that into what I meant to be a new post. And you are only supposed to load JFP rounds in levers, not ball rounds. I know because I shoot a marlin 1895 IRL.

There, now you know my dirty little secret and I have revealed my stake in this argument.

Lever action firearms will not feed right if certain ammo is loaded and some cases the bullets went off inside the tube mag

Umm... A semi wad-cutter is neither a hollow-point, nor an expanding round. It is designed to keep its shape to crush and break bones, and a .45-70 loaded to such pressures as the rounds in game would not lose any significant amount of "steam" in the range you are engaging enemies in FO:NV. The .45-70 is a superior manstopper to the .308 at the ranges depicted in FO:NV, it's a non-starter of an argument.



Yeah, exactly! Feeding ball ammo in a tube mag lever-carbine could result in detonation! Hollow-points, on the other hand, just don't like to feed reliably.



I know it means bullet weight, I just svck at formatting posts. I meant a ~500gr bullet with a cartridge loaded with smokeless powder. Give me a few days and I'll find you the info on the exact load my friend uses to achieve 3200 fps. I don't hand load, myself

[quote name='Worlocked' timestamp='1294447397' post='16932423']
Umm... A semi wad-cutter is neither a hollow-point, nor an expanding round. It is designed to keep its shape to crush and break bones, and a .45-70 loaded to such pressures as the rounds in game would not lose any significant amount of "steam" in the range you are engaging enemies in FO:NV. The .45-70 is a superior manstopper to the .308 at the ranges depicted in FO:NV, it's a non-starter of an argument.

The game just isnt realistic plain and simple.
If 45-70 was so godly why isnt it used by the military.
semiwadcutter or SWC is a type of all-purpose bullet commonly used in revolvers. The SWC combines features of the wadcutter target bullet and traditional round nosed revolver bullets, and is used in both revolver and pistol cartridges for hunting, target shooting, and plinking. Full wadcutters frequently have problems feeding from magazines reliably in automatics, so SWCs may be used when a true WC is desired but cannot be used for this reason.The basic SWC design consists of a roughly conical nose, truncated with a flat point (called a meplat), sitting on a cylinder.

Dont worry i cant format either, but ive had no experience with this cartidge in real life.

I belive the case is closed.
45-70 can be hand loaded to be better and so can .308.

Stop copying and pasting from wikipedia, it doesn't make you look smart. Neither does using the world "godly" in that context.

The fact that the united states military doesn't use the .45-70 doesn't make it any less potent a manstopper ... or bearstopper.

NATO standard is 9x19mm parabellum, does that mean the 10x25mm auto is an inferior manstopper? :rolleyes:



A metal plate could very well stop a .308, too, depending on thickness. Especially seeing as we can't use tungsten core rounds.

Here you guys go, I don't even have to bother my friend now:

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45-70&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source

Over 2,800 FPS, with what seems to be black powder, my friend is loading smokeless. I still want to know, so I'm gonna bother him anyways. I'll report back.

EDIT: Nope, 4198 is smokeless.... But he's wrong about that being a max load in a marlin 1895, unless my buddy is talking out of his rear... which I'll admit is entirely possible! :confused:

Okay so I'm having some fun poking around on this handload site: http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44%20Magnum&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source= http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=357%20Magnum&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source= http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45-70&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source= http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=308%20Winchester&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=

I'll just leave that there for you non-believers in magnum cartridges in rifle platforms.

LOL, I appreciate the offer - but I think I would not do the team justice.




Keepin mind, Deathclaws were made by the US Army. They have claws that can rip Power Armor to shreds. BTW - power armor replaced TANKS. So, no little pop gun bullet is going to drop them! For the old school Sci Fi fans think Star Ship Troopers (not the Movie - that was bad)

What they stand 12-14 feet - probably weigh in at 2,000-3000 pound mark, Have a heavily armored body. Need some serious power to stop one. No one cares if the gun can drop some unarmored man. Just saying.....


Edit: That was one of my disappointments post Fallout 2. Power Armor should ignore all this small arms pea shooters.

Dude, a .308 would wreck most ceramic plates (and most body armor in general), and the fleshy body behind it.

And no, I'm NOT coming out of left field - the DT of a Deathclaw is 15, which is MEDIUM. Armored opponents (NCR Rangers) have a DT of 24 or more. Ceramic armor is not out of the question.

Speaking of stupid arguments, I'm not the one picking the one extreme example and trying to apply it generally, everywhere. Snipers are given a lot of leeway in terms of what gun they choose to shoot - and the vast majority choose bolt action .308 to kill human beings. Maybe if we were actually talking about hunting bears, you have a point.

But we're not. This is a sniper rifle thread - sniper rifles kill people. The bush rifle and the AMR can compete on which is better at killing Deathclaws.

AM > Sniper > Hunting > Varmint

That's the way it's supposed to be, and that's the way it is in the game.

Though the Sniper / Hunting rifle do similar damage per shot (both use .308 ammo), the sniper has a much higher rate of fire and a much lower AP cost.

Uh, you said a SAPI plate, which is a ceramic insert designed to stop AT LEAST 3 direct impacts from 7.62x51mm aka .308 Winchester rounds. Maybe you should understand the acronyms you're throwing around before you hit that submit button.

Yes, you were. Because I was talking about the index that Gunny listed, which was referencing taking down large game at 100 meters. The overall topic of the thread had no relation to the post you quoted other than references to the same calibers depicted in game. TL:DR: We were slightly off-topic.

Gee... I wonder if that has anything to do with that round and rifle being general issue to marksman. Herp`a'derp! You think they wouldn't pick up a .300 winmag, .338 lapuamag, or any other superior rounds if they had the choice? They use what they're issued, they don't choose anything.

When going beyond man stopping power in the real world we use bears and other large game as reference points, not death claws or dragons. Welcome to life outside video games.


If you want to be super pedantic(we all know you do), the fallout universes' combat armor probably exceeds our current top of the line ESAPI plating which can even stop several tungsten core armor piercing .308 rounds, let's not even bother talking about the walking tanks that are power armor. The armor penetration realism argument will hurt the sniper rifle just as much as the lever guns, so lets keep the vidya game gun balance discussions in the video game world and not bother talking about SAPI plates and other such nonsense. If the game had realistically portrayed armor with the abundance that new vegas throws armored enemies at you the game would be super frustrating with anything but the AMR. You'd have to run from quite a few fights even at level cap.

Not gonna even bother. Totally not worth my time when you don't even have the decency to be civil.

Translation: I dun got caught out prattling on about things I didn't know about till I googled "ceramic plating".

EDIT: and I find you calling my civility into question pretty funny considering your previous post just barely stopped short of calling me an idiot *your argument about bears is stupid there's no bears in NV, blah blah*.

But that's enough time spent off topic.

Feel better? Glad you're done.

.45-70 is a obsolete military round that refused to die......it lived on as a sporting round because it was well known for being able to kill anything that walked on legs in North America. And the hot smokeless loads they've got for modern rifle designs are up there with modern magnum rounds in power. In the Fallout universe it should be effective against anything up to a Deathclaw....a Super Mutant Overlord or a Behemoth would be about the only things it couldn't kill outright.

Comparing the .308 to the .45/70 was a comparison made by Worlocked - in terms of weapon cost/player level when acquired, the Sniper Rifle directly compares with the Trail Carbine, which fires a completely different round. The Brush gun, the end-game gun of the Cowboy specialization tree, fires the .45/70, and thus should be compared with the AMR that fires the .50 cal.

Secondly, nobody advertised nerfing the DAM of the Cowboy guns. But I think we can all agree that armor piercing was probably not a factor in their design.

Thirdly, bullet drop obviously isn't modelled, so there's no way to reproduce the rainbow trajectory that typically characterizes such rifles.

Fourthly, why are we using "modern rifle designs" as a standard of comparison in our Fallout world? The Fallout universe diverges from ours at an unspecified time, and given that their technology has not (seemingly) benefitted from the invention of the microchip/microprocessor, I find it hard to believe their technology in 2077 of their universe is remotely comparable to our tech in 2011. The invention of the microchip shoehorned our civilization into a completely different technology tree, affecting all forms of science and technology in our universe, including manufacturing/materials research which would apply to modern guns. And despite New Vegas taking place in 2281, Fallout technology did not advance after 2077 because the war wiped everything out.

Therefore, I find arguments that need to use use specific examples that only exist our world ridiculous - just because our technology has overcome many limitations that typically characterized and distinguished various classes of firearms in history doesn't mean that such technology exists in the Fallout world.

For example, in reality there currently exists a .50 cal round that has armor-piercing, high explosive and incendiary effects, all in one round. Should the devs take this round into consideration when assigning a DAM value to the AMR versus the Brush Rifle?

Well, you can, but you'd be feeding them one by each into the open action. Too much subtlety for this game. Though it would be amusing for a while to see this feature added by a mod, and then everybody will complain that their lever gun isn't working right anymore if they use spitzer-type bullets with it. "It only holds one shot! WTF!" <_<



Just thought you'd like to know that the .45-70 cartridge was enormously popular with buffalo hunters, and is probably the #1 cause of the near extinction of buffalo. They would regularly shoot beyond 500 yards, and 1000 yards wasn't unheard of. The further away from the herd you are the more shots you get before they figure out something is attacking them, see. Regular competition is still held where entrants shoot at buffalo silhouettes at 1000 yards. I thought this might factor into your thought process. Military testing of the .45-70 indicated it was still capable of causing casualties a mile away (at this range you would use your volley sights, turning your riflemen into small-bore artillery). It's a slow bullet that just gets slower so it's hard to hit with it at long range, but it's also a giant brick of lead and slams into whatever it hits with significant energy.



It was. They moved on to rifles that delivered similar energy with a higher muzzle velocity, which are easier to hit with.

When momaw speaks ppl get round house kicked in the face thru the power of logic :P >_< i hate logic

-Gunny out.

Gunny, I have to point out again that such poor bullet trajectory was in part caused by the low pressure of black powder loads. Modern smokeless loads are leaving the barrel at much higher velocities, as I have shown earlier. It's pretty safe to assume that we are using smokeless loads in FO:NV considering hunters were using smokeless .45-70 loads as early as the 1980's.

http://www.shopcorbon.com/CORandregBON-Hunter/45-70-Govt-350gr-CORBON-Hunter-BC/HT4570B350-20/300/Product, all figures at 1000 yards:

Velocity - 655 fps
Energy - 334 ft-lb
Drop in inches - (-1468)
Wind drift in inches - 283.0

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/66234-5.html, all figures at 1000 yards:

Velocity - 685 fps
Energy - 421 ft-lb
Drop in inches - (-1594)
Wind drift in inches - 204.7

All figures from Ammo and Ballistics, 4th edition.

_Gunny out.

<700 fps... I posted a link showing 2,000+ fps loads on the previous page, the hottest of which was over 2,800 fps. You can get over 1,000 fps from a warm load that's < +p.

You showed hand loads. I showed factory loads. I was talking about base damage with non-handloaded ammo. Is there some way I can help you understand?

_Gunny out.

And like I said before; Would it satisfy your pedantry if they lowered base damage of levers and massively boosted the +DMG of hand loads to get the same end result of superior lever damage? A whole lot of work for nothing.

I understand what you are saying, I'm just saying you can't exclude hot hand loads that also exist in-game.

EDIT: from that same retailer:

BVAC HTM .45-70
Muzzle velocity: 1600 fps.
Velocity at 100 yards: 1368 fps.
Velocity at 300 yards: 1059 fps.
Muzzle energy: 2273 ft/lbs.
Energy at 100 yards: 1663 ft/lbs.
Energy at 300 yards: 996 ft/lbs.

Nice word. I like that. I've never considered myself pedantic. I always thought I was a pretty comon-sense, open-minded guy. Of course, frankly, I cold care less what you call me. I've been called worse by better.

To answer your question: No. I am not asking *them* to do anything, since I understand they won't. I *may* do something myself, probably for my own use. Since I would only have to please myself, the level of effort involved would only be of import to me, your opinions on that subject aside. I posited some points here to get some feedback on the ideas I had. You may consider that I feel I have a good handle on what your feedback is, and therefore the need for futther conversation is really moot, wouldn't you say?

-Gunny out.

I'm *not* trying to ruffle your feathers, gunny, but you seem to be taking it that way. I guess I'll just not post in this thread anymore if I'm really causing you that much grief.

Really did not mean to incite hostilities, here.

Handload should be, handloaded rounds offered by Handloader perk.

The problem is with Cowboy perk the Brush Gun being way more powerful than .308Remington/7.62NATO makes it wild.

Maybe the Cowboy perk should work like Laser Commander, while Sniper Rifle should have slight damage advantage over hunting rifle for being a high-grade military weapon (like 5 points more).