I like how you guys cry foul when I reference older tech and say their timeline is different, yet you are using 2000's our time factory ammo as the basis of your argument.

How the hell do you know what a "factory load" is in the fallout universe? Or if we even are using factory ammo? That .45-70 ammo box on the geck looks poorly/home made.

EDIT: Sorry, misread original.

You're clearly of a set bias.We're just establishing general trends - no harm in that.

.45ACP, what are the numbers at 0 or 50 yards?

Yeah I didn't expect a straight answer, you gave a similar response when you were wrong about ceramic plating.

Also, I believe it's stated in game that the vast majority of the ammo and firearms are produced by the gun runners... so, really, what basis do current factory loads have in FO:NV? Zip.

EDIT: His post originally said; "The rest of your post isn't worth answering "

I don't really have a bias towards any weapons *in the game*. My only thoughts on balance are that the game is too easy once you get a few levels under your belt. I wish the game scaled enemies like Oblivion.

'nother EDIT: Thinking about it some more, if I were in charge, I'd:

-Nerf every other weapon tree's weapons down to explosives/Melee level to make the game more challenging.
-Give the AMR about twice as much damage as a base brush gun with about a quarter of the fire rate.
-Nerf the cowboy repeater's base fire rate by about 15%.
-Split the melee/explosives bonus' in cowboy and cut the firearms bonus in half.

Obviously just very rough estimates on the numbers, but it's my general thoughts on weapon balance.

Alright, I tweaked some stuff around. At normal expected engagement ranges (~200y), I have the Trail Carbine using stock .44Magnum (I'm assuming that this is jacketed flat nose) at 5% greater damage than the Sniper/Hunting Rifle using stock .308 (assuming that this is jacketed boat-tail spitzer) with -3DT for the .44mag against -15DT for the .308 due to bullet construction and energy/area. The spread on the Trail Carbine should be about 450% worse than the Sniper. So it looks like this so far, if I leave the Trial Carbine damage alone:

Weapon___0DT_____15DT_____30DT_____Spread
TC________45_______33_______18________1.0
Sniper_____43_______43_______28________0.02

Where the Trail Carbine does greater damage at close range against unarmored targets, loses performance against armored targets and you won't be able to hit crap over 200 yards. That's where I'm at right now. I haven't even looked at ROF, AP cost and reload times. Please keep in mind while I'm trying to be as accurate as possible, there's goin to be some subjectivity, expscially when I leave the world of real life performance and have to translate that to game mechanics. The question is this: Does this seem like reasonable performance, considering what we expect from these rounds/weapons IRL? Both weapons will kill a moderately armored (-15DT) mid-level human target (100HP) with one sneak critial, 2 regular crits, and 3 non-critical body shots.

If you want to see the numbers behind this, click here

-Gunny out.

Edit: Text formatting on this forum svcks.

Basiccaly in the game 45-70 is better than .308 end of story. .44 mag passes .308 with cowboy as well.

Of course they do. And they should (.45-70 certainly, .44 marginally), except against armor and the spread should be much higher. But we're looking at .308/.44, Sniper/Trail Carbine, and we know that with perks the .44 outperforms the .308 in any circumstance with base ammo. The question we're asking is: Should it? And if the answer is yes or no, then under what circumstances?

No it shouldent be better
45-70 would get a better dam but wouldent have AP charteristics of the .308.
The .308 ammo is much more accruate then them pistol cartidges.

Then we are agreed. What do you think of the numbers I cooked up? They're on the previous page.

_Gunny out.

Already seen em and they seem correct to me neither of them STANDERD bullets will fly as fast as the .308.
or will the others have the accrucy of the .308.

Like ive said before 45-70 and .44 have the aerodynamics of a school bus and the drop rate of a whale.

Define "standerd" for me; 2000's our timeline mass produced ammo? Why? What do they have to do with post apocalyptic ammo "manufactured"(hand loaded) by a bunch of reformed tribals(Gun Runners) in an alternate timeline where technology progressed in an almost entirely different manner?

Do I get to use the argument used against me over the entire last page or is that cheating?

Standerd ammo is your most common amount of powder(MODERN SMOKELESS)(70 grains of powder)common bullet weight(seems to be 300 grain in new vegas).and a regular round nosed bullet.
Also they use pre war schematics on their ammo and weapons which is 2077 and before.

Common in what context? Common in our timeline? What does that have to do with Fallout? What's the common charge for a microfusion cell in 2011 America, our timeline?

Is this about balance or "realism"? Because if it were *really* about "realism", they'd load some 'effin hot .44/.357 rounds standard if people in power armor and dinosaur sized lizards were walking around in 2011 America.

Common in our current timeline which i would think has not change much in the ENTIRE FALLOUT UNIVERSE.There is no listing of them changeing the way ammo is made, besides the creation of fictional energy weapons.Which were not talking about in this thread.
Gte it through your head we are talking about standerd ammo here NOT any type of special hot load, swc, 4yhtrjvnrjtrl; or any other type of ammo WERE discussing standerd ammo.
I can make .308 hotloads as well,almost all things you can do with a 45-70 can be done to a .308.

The fallout universe still uses vacuum tubes, does your laptop weigh 50 lbs in 2011 our timeline? You have no clue how much powder is in a fallout universe round, no one does. Basing the ballistics on real world rounds is more inaccurate than using hand load data, seeing as ammo is not of the mass produced variety in the Mojave Wasteland - the gun runners make all the ammo you're using, and they hand load.

Is there a laptop in any of the fallout games?

LOL, exactly! Fallout technology != 2011 America tech!

The fallout world is diffrent from our current world yes but bullet tech hasent changed.So what your saying is irrelevent.
The game has Robots but has a camera design from the 40s.It dosent change the fact that bullet production hasent changed in the fallout world.

How is it irrelevant? The ammo you use in new vegas wasn't mass produced in luke-warm loads by remington in the year 2011, it was hand loaded by Joe Bob 'used to be a tribal' who is now employed by the gun runners in 2281. They make these rounds for people to run off and kill Deathclaws and Mirelurks, do you think they are loading them like some wimpy round made to kill deers?

Hell, even today you really ought to use a hotter loadings if you want to drop a "measly" Bear.

I ask again; Is this really about what would be realistic? Is it really about balance? Or do you just want to find some convoluted way to justify making the sniper rifle eclipse the trail carbine(or even the brush gun going by your posts).

EDIT: According to the wiki the Gun Runners are also the main supplier of the NCR for weapons, armor and ammunition... The NCR has to contend with things like power armor and death claws all the time and their elite rangers seem to favor these magnum firing weapons - do you think they aren't loading these rounds appropriately for such targets?

I just found some confirmation of my belief that the 5mm is a much higher velocity round as I had suggested. Here are the powder loads for all rifle rounds:

Basic ammo____Powder units
5mm______________5
5.56mm___________4
.308______________5
.45-70____________4
.50______________22

It seems as though the much smaller 5mm bullet would have a substantially higher MV than the .308, which we know is probably in the 2700-3000fps range. Just how fast is the 5mm then? Also notice the 5.56mm using the same powder load as the .45-70. Interesting. I'm goin back to using the Ruger .204 round as the model for the 5mm. It's gonna have quite a bit of DT bypass. The Minigun and Assualt Carbine are gonna kick ass.

Edit: Wow. I wonder how slow that .45-70 goes with only 27 grains of powder?
-Gunny out.

Guys? Is Worlocked displaying...could it be...pedantry?

?pedantic - Overly concerned with minute details, a narrow focus on the trivial aspects of learning. Striving for the upmost correctness, eliminating ambiguity.
old.psd267.wednet.edu/Content/assets/PHS/Faculty/jthompso/AP%20Tone%20Vocabulary.doc



This seems reasonable at first glance in terms of balancing. Will pick at it later today, but it looks like the DT values for targets would have to be adjusted as well.

Unclench blondie. The material in this thread will never make it into a patch. Go enjoy your overpowered Brush Gun and Trail Carbine. Have some fun.

Oh, your comment is so witty and scathing. :rolleyes: I'm currently playing an energy weapons character, so I'll get right on that. FWIW I think they should tone down the Cowboy perk and the Cowboy repeaters ROF on top of that, and I already said as much on the last page.



This thread has been nothing but pedantry since about page 2... and I'm king pedant of pedantland, so yeah, pretty much.

Well then, if this stuff isn't going to be in a patch (and its not), why are you so into this thread? What's your dog in this fight? A lot of your comments haven't been exactly constructive.

Is someone forcing you to use .46ACPs future-unreleased-if-ever-released mod?

I found the discussion on ballistics interesting, his mods numbers are neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. What have I said that isn't constructive? Other than in response to rude posts like your previous one?

I don't have some kind of hidden agenda here, I just took to the debate like a moth to flame because it interested me. I posted my thoughts on balance on the last page, feel free to look them over if you don't believe this.

Maybe those are....mmm...250 gain .45-50s :vaultboy:

We really need Josh here and tell him the nerf hammer hit a bit too hard.