I have a much simpler thought on the problem here.
When I go to shoot something at long range I can't see it until I get fairly close (for a sniper) to the target.
I can be perched on a hill a LONG way away, and see a building. I can look through my scope and see the door frame on this building - it stands about 2-3 mill dots high.
I have to get MUCH closer before the person appears in front of the door - and only stands 1/2 a mill dot shorter than the door.

Range and accuracy were mentioned as an anti .357/.44 mag argument. This is irrelevant, as you cannot see far enough away in NV to shoot beyond the max range of these bullets.
With a .50 Cal sniper rifle I should be able to get on the roof next to the ranger ghost in Mohave outpost and snipe powder gangers in Prim.

By the way a sneak attack critical with the Brush Gun + Cowboy + .45 -70 SWC hand loads - out DAMs the AMR.
For the record the only lever gun to fire a RIFLE round is the .45-70 (Brush Gun).

In DLC, I would like to see a buffalo rifle (add it to the cowboy list), chambered in say .45-110 & make a scope mod available.

Back to my original point - you can't see far enough away to argue that your .308 can shoot farther away than a lever gun.

CCna if you think amr is good try ycs its like a turd compared to a gold nugget of awesome ;p Alien monster me love you :flamethrower:

I find that I just don't have a whole lot to add to this thread (or the 2 other sniper rifle threads). I love my sniper rifles, I love my sniping, hell, I'm even a damn fine shot in real life. Once shot a 246 out of 250 Rifle Expert in the Corps (that's 50 rounds mix of slow and rapid fire at targets ranging from 200 to 500m over open sights with an M16A1. Out of 50 shots, I only missed the bull 4 times. I pulled most of the second mag rapid fire at the 300m line). The reasons why I just have nothing constructive to add to these threads are:

1. Even though I'm on PC and could download a mod or fire up the GECK and change the weapon stats myself, I'm too lazy to do that. So, just like all the console players out there, I'm stuck with what we've got. So if that means my sniper has to run around with 400 year old lever-action technology and take the Cowboy perk then so be it. Maybe when I get bored with *playing* the game, maybe I'll start *playing with* the game, but until then, oh well.

2. The above statement by Bob. At the normal in game engagement ranges, in real life, I could effectively snipe with a fricken pellet gun. So again, meh.

It's been an interesting read on some of the research you all have done here, and props to you guys' efforts. But as they say, "I ain't got a dog in this fight."

-Gunny out.

Just use the Anti-Material Rifle with Match Hand Load Rounds, there is your sniper rifle for you. The sniper rifle was meant to be an elite, end-game weapon; you need a 75 guns skill compared to some other weapons. That being said, bump up the critical chance to 2x, instead of 1x, or lower the damage on the cowboy repeater a bit.

And for people who are level capped? Who do not have 100 Repair and who do not have 8 Strength? Or the Weapon Handling perk? What are those characters supposed to do?

Even for role-playing purposes, the primary weapon of a sniper is a sniper rifle - not a 30lb AMR designed for killing light-armored vehicles. Anti-materiel rifles kill vehicles, sniper rifles kill people. Snipers kill people. Therefore, snipers predominantly use sniper rifles, not AMRs.

People should not be forced to "upgrade" to the AMR because a month after release the devs decide to release a patch that gimps a popular weapon for the sake of balance...in a non-competitive, single-player game.



One, if the sniper rifle is so elite, why does it svck so bad? If it's supposed to be an end-game weapon, why is an early game weapon (the repeater) highly competitive with it?

Two, please lets not repeat the stupid mistake the last patch made by nerfing other weapons so that the item in question can find some worth. It doesn't work unless it's universally applied to all weapons - otherwise, it just pisses people off.

I halfway agree and halfway disagree with this. I do agree that if someone has spent a lot of time running numbers to figure out how to maximize this or that they shouldn't complain that they were able to figure out a way to make a weapon over-powered, etc. However, if a certain skill, weapon, game mechanic, etc. makes the game too easy without the player putting any major effort into figuring out how to game the system then it's good to make an adjustment. If there's one thing I can't stand in RPGs it's needing to self-gimp to get a challenge. I should be able to play the game without thinking too much about what builds and equipment I should or shouldn't use to make sure I don't get too powerful. That's work, not fun. It's just as bad as the aforementioned "power gaming" or worse. I should be thinking about how to build my character to be more powerful, not less powerful. That's what the character development/equipment metagame is all about. I do think that the sniper should have been nerfed a bit, but I think they could have found a better way to do it.

Where do people get the idea that single-player RPGs don't need to be balanced? Sure, they don't need to be scrutinized for exploits the way MMO's do, but if I have to self-gimp when I'm not trying to power game to avoid the game being too easy on the Hard setting then there's a problem with the game design.

Specialize then, the game isn't meant so you can have 100 guns and roll on god mode.



Just imagine the AMR is a Barrett 50 Cal, as there are no vehicles in the game anyway.



Nobody is forcing you to upgrade, the sniper rifle is still effective at long rangers with the suppressor. Hell, I took out soldiers that were lurking around Camp Forlorne Hope, with one shot, while still remaining hidden. The vantage points there are ideal to show what the sniper can do.

[quote]One, if the sniper rifle is so elite, why does it svck so bad? If it's supposed to be an end-game weapon, why is an early game weapon (the repeater) highly competitive with it?[/quote[

That was my mistake, I meant to say it wasn't meant to be an elite, end-game weapon.

The sniper rifle is still highly effective, I don't find myself struggling to kill enemies at long distances without them recognizing me. Sure, my cowboy repeater and brush gun are better statistically, but nothing beats landing a clean headshot without the AI having a single clue where you are.

Nerd i got to ask how is limiting the use of a weapon difficult in a game where the chance of death is slim at best.I have the best weapons massive amoutns of ammo/110million thru the exploit,but i cant figure out why you need to nerf a weapon when you can simply not abuse it ?.Just because the sniper pre patch 100 crit does not mean you had to use it as a solve all the worlds problems death stick*The creation of the 100 crit bild requires specific gear,stat requirements before it is born .I seriously want some one to explain to me when does the game force you to use the sniper as an assualt rifle?There are so many choices of death at your disposal why do you abuse it?

The only way i can under stand this would be the fact it would be moronic to not use the most powerful weapon at your disposal if its a viable choice.But this excuse of self gimping does not work in a situation where self control is an issue.
If you dont like the awesomeness of the sniper simply dont use it as an assualt rifle.

Perhaps you missed the part where I was level capped? I can't specialize - I'm already specialized as a sniper.



This doesn't even make sense. The M82/107 is an AMR - and I *just* said that snipers don't run around with AMRs for "funs-ies." If I'm role-playing as a sniper, why would I want to carry an AMR?

Pretending that it's a Barrett isn't going to make anything better. This isn't Call of Duty - snipers don't run around with 30lb guns like the Barrett and the Intervention.

I may as well "pretend" that the sniper rifle does 62 damage. It's about equally useless.



One, *you* suggested that I upgrade/switch to the AMR "as my new sniper rifle." Two, tactics that work at Camp Forlorn Hope are not necessarily universally applicable everywhere. You cannot take a situational case and apply it generally.

It's"situational" for a reason.

[

I disagree. I think a sniper rifle is a very elite weapon.



Of course the sniper rifle is highly effective - any weapon with 40 DAM or higher would be "highly effective" when attacking with a sneak crit. If this argument was actually legitimate, then there would be no reason for *any* weapon to have more than 40 damage, because they would all be "highly effective."

The fact that the sniper rifle can still one-shot things is an invalid argument.

Your rite thou no damn way you would be running around with 30 pd weapon lol,unless you were using the power armour /Barrett has to be put stationary unles you want to go flying on ya ass X D

So, can you please direct me to an alternative to the sniper rifle if I want to use a gun with a scope, a silencer, and better range than the varmint rifle then? If I want to play a sniper, but the only rifle in the game that my sniper character is likely to use is over-powered, then I have to completely adjust the way I want to play the game to avoid being powerful to the point of making combat un-fun. How is that giving me more choices?

Besides, self-control and self-gimping are the same thing. It's a GAME, not a sandbox like Gary's Mod. I should be able to play the game and be challenged without worrying about avoiding certain items and play-styles. That's not the same as avoiding power-gaming. I'm willing to avoid some weapons (the Fat Man, for example, I can't stand that thing), but the sniper rifle needs to be as close to correctly-balanced as possible because it's vital to certain play styles.

The pre-patch sniper rifle makes a lot of encounters too easy even for lower-level characters, and there aren't really any alternative weapons for stealth sniper characters to use. It needed a bit of a nerf, just not the type of nerf they gave it.

Math prevails, yay!

I was less than thrilled with the huge nerf on the sniper rifle. It was probably too good to begin with but lately I've been questioning its usefulness. Why bother lugging it around when I can only snipe with it when my Trail Carbine can do almost everything and guns like the AMR can snipe better?

True, it seems the closest thing to what we had before is the Hunting Rifle, but can you put a Silencer on that? I have always used the AMR for my sniping, as I can get far enough away that most critters can't find me, even when they get revved up. However that can't be silenced.....

Prevails? By what measure?

The sniper rifle with .308 ammo isn't much more then a hunting rifle with a scope and a faster rate of fire. It also only takes 38 AP compared to the hunting rifle's 60 AP.

Nerd this still doesnt explain why do you use the sniper as a main line weapon which it isnt designed for.If your a sniper how come u dont change weapons according to the situation?. IF you do use it as an assualt rifle then the problem is created by your own choice not the games.If the game forced upon you the need to use it as such i could understand but it doesnt.

And self gimping is not an issue its the fact ppl get angry that the sniper is a unholy death stick when they themselves promote the hate by useing it as their front line weapon.Its kinda humorous ppl get angry with the Sr but it takes intentional misuse to make it as some ppl call it the end all be all weapon.And to the players that condemn the sniper in close quarters vats you would never use a weapon like that Ever ,thats why they are given personal defense weapons .

Soft i still love ya just gotta give ya hell after all if i dont i would be promoting a democratic hell hole

I think maybe we're not arguing about the same thing. I'm not using it as an assault rifle...just as a sniping tool. Problem is, before the patch it was just a little too deadly. With only a moderately good Guns score I could pick off most humanoid enemies at a distance effortlessly because it was really easy to one-shot them in the head...it was almost a guaranteed kill. It's cool when you score a crit and that happens, but when it becomes clear that I can sit really far away from a group of Fiends and headshot them all dead practically before they know I'm there - consistently with very rare exception - it's a little crazy. I'm just saying that a tiny nerf to rate of fire or something like that would have done the trick. They went a little too far. Sure, if I have 100 in Guns, 100 Sneak, and I'm using an expensive weapon I expect to be Death Incarnate on Friggin' Roller Skates™, but at least one of a group of 5 enemies should have a chance to return fire...especially if they're trained soldiers.

Well, it was a bit weird how silencer doesn't make your round slower and reduce damage.

Sniper Rifle is only over the top because it retain full power even with a silencer.

A properly designed and mounted silencer will increase range and stopping power. Not by much, but an increase, as it effectively lengthens the barrel. For sure it has little to no impact on Spread as seen in these groupings

http://www.guns.connect.fi/rs/impact.html

Ok maybe it will help if I expain exactly how I figured out the sniper rifle and gobi would wind up mid 40s before the patch came out...

There are 2 key factors.

1 dt of targets was going down.

2 The sniper rifle wasnt ment to be effective vs many late game targets. Namely deathclaws and power armors amoung others.

Most of the high damage weapons that didnt change stats were end game weapons for use vs deathclaws and power armor and whatever dlc may bring... But the sniper isnt end game because end game targets are more like tanks or armroed cars then people and the sniper is designed in this game for use vs people. You dont silently take out a tank.

LO L dude nerfing the sniper wont change the fact the ai is imbred .But i can under stand whyyou would think a nerf would solve this issue.Although its valid getting hit in the head by a 308 and surviving isnt unless your 1 the chosen emissary of god/allah/*every other omi potent force* or a freak of nature .And if you want to be cheap nerd use first person view with death cam and enjoy free turbo

A nerf most certainly would solve the issue I'm talking about. I mean...it did...it just "solved" it too well. I'm not talking about the AI being dumb...I'm talking about the fact that before the patch the sniper rifle was a guaranteed 1-shot-kill to most humanoid enemies even with only a moderately good Guns score. Even without a silencer they'd never have time to react before I made all their heads 'splode. A simple reduction to the rate of fire and lowering the crit multiplier slightly would at least give enemies a chance.

OO ill back you up in reduction of rof but not of reduction of dge and crit not so sure.At first you were my arch nemesis but now super nerd i offer you a chance to be my alpha minion-first task is the creation of a delicious pulled pork samwich with a ice cold coke :spotted owl: the terms are non negotiable lol

Uhm... It should? It's supposed to be the next tier in the sniper range.
I went through the ending two times one with the AMR and one with the Sniper Rifle. The AMR's slower rate of fire and lower crit chance made it inferior to the SR to use as I crossed the bridge. And here I was hoping to bust some asses with the AMR. Very disappointing.
Sure they may have gone to far, but it's not supposed to be the high tier guns solution.
Personally I'd say move the damage up to 50, to set it apart from the hunting rifle and reduce the rate of fire.


It is an RPG, not some combat simulator. Getting hit in the head is already so powerful it negates aiming for anything else. Seriously one-shotting a fiend is one thing, but higher level enemies should be able to shrug it off, for gameplay reasons.

Effective range is at the heart of the problem, as I see it. Why isn't the Hunting Shotgun in this discussion; it does far more damage than either the Sniper Rifle -or- the Trail Carbine. And loaded with slugs, will do that damage in a single hit which is highly effect at blasting through DT, and with Shotgun Surgeon + Magnum ammo, you're shooting effectively DT-10 DAM x1.15 ammunition. ZOMG so overpowered!

The reason the Hunting Shotgun isn't being considered here is because it's not very accurate. It's effective range means that with buckshot you have to be quite close to a target to score good hits and even with slugs, it's a shortish/medium range weapon at the best of times. Therefore despite delivering more damage than the trail carbine, hunting rifle *or* sniper rifle, it's not even under discussion because the weapon fills a totally different tactical role.

Which is why I suggest that the trail carbine (and to an extent the cowboy repeater) are too accurate. You can use them as sniper weapons, engaging targets at a distance functionally similar to that which you can engage targets at using the sniper rifle. They're not AS accurate, but their effective range is still quite a long ways. They shouldn't be remotely comparable accuracy wise: the carbines may deliver more damage, but you have to get closer to a target to do it.