Solution for Fast travel dilema : V - Skyrim

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:02 am

SNIP

And the sad thing is... it's so easy to do. It's not the most complex thing in the world. But for some reason, some of the people who liked Oblivion's fast travel really can't budge in and say "alright, I respect that you didn't like this system, and it would be great if the developers did something so that you can enjoy the game as well".
Instead, they say "making you happy isn't even worth 5 minutes of their time".
What the heck, guys.

There's an explanation of mine for why it has come to extremes:

It's because there are two camps who want FT changed.

The First Group[ (1.G) is the people who want FT gone, or who want it extremely limited, because they for some reason can't limit themselves.

The Second Group (2.G) are the people who want a more immersive form of fast travel, since fast travel is the character traveling with time speed up.

1.G doesn't have a leg to stand on.

2.G have a case.

And this is where it get's complicated because:

1.Gs main point is to get FT out or limited through whatever means available.

2.G wants immersive FT which recognizes the world, this can be achieved through a lot of things, some of which functions as a limit.

Because of this, 1.G will argue the 2.Gs arguments, when their own arguments run out.

However, this damages the 2.Gs image, because now 1.G and 2.G are associated with each other, and the agenda of the 2.G is drowned, and dismissed by the arguments against the agenda of 1.G.

Basically, 2.G is the reason FT debates are still standing, but because 1.G is associated with them, 2.G is giving the agenda of 1.G artificial life support. 1.G is basically liching on the valid case presented by 2.G.

Just look at the question tweeted to one of the developers "are we still forced to fast travel?" , That is the agenda of 1.G! who is "forced" to fast travel, because they somehow can't limit themselves. It says nothing about immersive fast travel, it disguises the 2.Gs valid case, as one that is invalid.

This results in our current stalemate, where FT debates refuses to die, because of 2.Gs valid case, but cannot win, because all people see is 1.G.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:08 am

I'd like to see a no FT option in either the config menu or no FT in hardcoe mode. That might solve the problem altogether.

Oblivion has this function I guess this work in the console to: EnableFastTravel 0

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:52 am

Good idea but isnt it Daggerfall?

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:01 pm

Raestloz:

I didn't mean to say that I have already thought out the perfect fast-travel system or anything, I don't. But, you want me to elaborate on my idea, so here it is.
Imagine you have both Oblivion's fast travel system and Morrowind's means of transportation. Yet in the beginning, you have absolutely *no* map markers anywhere, like in Fallout 3. You can now either explore all the locations by foot, or use the available means of transportation to get there faster. Well, ideally you'll also have the option of using horses or something alike. In any case, once you discovered a couple of locations, you can still go to your map and fast-travel there. However, instead of "Really fast-travel there? Yes/No" you get a choice menu with (at least) the two options "fast-travel by foot" and "use means of transportations".
You'd still be able to go from anywhere to anywhere in the second option, but instead of walking a beeline to the location, the character would map out the fastest way of getting there and use the corresponding means of transportation - of course, however, only those of the cities he actually visited already. It will cost money, but it will be much faster. More importantly, however, it will be an immersive option for players who want Morrowind's system, but still don't want to repeatedly wander through areas they've been through before.

So yeah, this is kind of a mix of Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3. But only very roughly. The important thing is that it doesn't take anything away from the fast travel system of Fallout 3 - all it does is add options. Also, the "temptation" of Oblivion's fast-travel, which many people complained about, is gone. The Morrowind fans will have their immersion back - the map could even show the route they'll take with their means of transportation. I believe everyone would be happy with this, but maybe I'm wrong?

There's an explanation of mine for why it has come to extremes: (snip)

Well put! I believe that is really the case.
However, I would slightly disagree that 1.G doesn't have a leg to stand on... they have one argument on their side: the fast-travel centric gameplay in which you get a quest in Cheydinhal to go kill some guy in Anvil. That is a pretty strong argument in my opinion, and it opens up a whole new level for the discussion.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:04 pm

I don't think there's anything wrong with fast travel itself, I just think it needed a few tweaks from how it was done in Oblivion. The biggest issue was how it allowed you to skip exploration completely which when you really boil down to it I think is the main problem most players have with it. Some like the convenience, and some feel like they are missing that exploration factor in between.

I don't however think people should still be concerned because it appears a great solution was presented in Fallout. What they did was make it so you could not fast travel to an area you have never been. Oblivion was similar but cities could be traveled to at any time. This means you have to set out and actually travel to these locations in order to get a map marker for fast traveling too. Once you have that it's not a chore to have to travel from point A at the top of the map to point B at the bottom. Sure Morrowind's system was more realistic but it's a fairly hardcoe feature to make players have to memorize routes to travel. A game should never be a chore or feel like work. Half the time I couldn't remember paths without consulting my paper map that shipped with the game, and that's just not right.

Really though I think the Fallout method is ideal, it still encourages exploration while giving you an option if you don't want to spent 10 minutes walking over terrain you already knew. Even in Morrowind there were times when you had no transportation paths available to where you needed to go and would have to walk/jump/fly/etc to a destination which sometimes took upwards of 5 minutes. This got uber annoying if you had to make more then one trip to and from that location (think fetch quests).

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:30 am

It is a completely redundant "solution", while at the same time it's not a solution at all. Like I said before, it's just another layer of stupidity

Simply act like Fast Travel doesn't exist in the game, and you're golden. No switch, no whining, just simple common sense

It's like you have the choice of "whether to cook chicken or not", but before that you have the choice of "to be able to choose whether to cook a chicken or not"

It's too redundant a solution. If you don't want to cook chicken, then don't add another step of to be able to choose whether to do it or not, simply DON'T DO IT

@Fearrabbit:
Can you elaborate as to how your fast travel is?

If it's "the same as doing it manually minus holding down move button and random enemies", then it doesn't really help, except if it's another option, that is, you can basically "teleport" when you really need to save that diminishing real-life time or you can choose to go with public transport

It's anything but "just another layer of stupidity" Lots of people don't want Fast Travel, Bethesda can fix this by making it optional. It's that simple.
Other than that you have the people who don't want to fast travel, but can't resist using it.

Like I said, having both Fast Travel and Travel Services is the best solution. While the Travel Services in itself will stop (most) people from Fast Travel a toggle would still be nice.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:48 am

@OP:
Just give it up. There will always be "don't use it" morons in these threads wildly attempting to bury ANY kinds of ideas and progress. They "win". No need for BGS to implement something immersive if it hinders convenience, even if it pretty much destroys the game in the process.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:07 pm

I would love to see what all the fast travel lovers would say if fast travel was taken out. :wink_smile: A simple fix really, just give us the Morrowind travel option as well or a option at the begining of the to choose between the two. It's really is that simple so my guess is it won't be in the game.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:15 am

I really don't like the idea of random chests....

Besides fast travel does not ruin exploration. A prime example I've given many time on this forum is Red Dead Redemption. That game has fast travel from anywhere to anywhere. You don't even have to originally discover a location first. Just place your waypoint there, select fast travel and boom.

I think this is pretty much spot on red dead rewarded you for not fast travelling with random encounters, you had mounted transport that was actually realistically fast and effective! You had real world transport options like stage coaches and trains, where you could sit and watch as someone else transported you or 'sleep through your journey and wake up still in your carriage and you arrive at your destination, thus giving a RP justified kind of fast travel. It all just worked! I think something like that pretty much pleases everyone!

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:01 pm

:facepalm: troll.

Of all ridiculous stuff ever suggested for the legendary "Fast Travel Problem", there is one single most idiotic solution: "make it so you can turn it on/off": making an option optional!

It simply adds another layer of stupidity. If you can't handle the pressure, you'll simply turn it on and use it and then blame Bethesda for actually including fast travel at all, empowering the part of your brain that'd like to save real-life time in doing so

I think people who can't handle the pressure and need to be forced not to use fast travel are the ones Bethesda NEED to ignore. You can always not make use of an option, but there is no way to implement an additional mechanics into a v1.00.

Just how hard is it to not use a feature? I've never felt I have to use self-shadows or difficulty slider, yet I don't think I should take the option away from those that DO want to use them.

That aside, I have been wanting to ask people this:
"Just how fast is the 'immersive fast travel' you've been suggesting?"

This is not a sarcasm or an insult, this is a real question

If it's just as fast as a white horse in Oblivion, then there are little benefits from it, aside from the possibility of "can't be attacked by wildlives" which is a real plus.

Dont get me wrong, I do agree with you. Meybe Skyrim should make you choose from the start of a game if you want fast travel or not, like choosing to go hard mode in Fallout New Vegas. That way, it cant be changed.

Although personally I dont see the bad thing about a toggle on it for game options. Granted you could change it at will, but its the gamers preference at the end of the day. Its their game, no point over complicating it. And a toggle option will take away the excuse to complain about fast travel, you dont like it, turn it off.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:54 am

Im just saying make there a reward for going off the beaten path. Instead of FT option

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:02 am

this thread is sad xD fast travel isn't a dilema to the developers

this is just a dilema for us xD

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:55 am

Okay I'll bite, It could probably work, but I'm already sold on the idea of just having chances of random encounters put into the Fallout 3's fast travel.

It's because there are two camps who want FT changed.

The First Group[ (1.G) is the people who want FT gone, or who want it extremely limited, because they for some reason can't limit themselves.

The Second Group (2.G) are the people who want a more immersive form of fast travel, since fast travel is the character traveling with time speed up.

This is a pretty damn accurate assessment. Here's the thing. Personally, I love fast travel. It allows the player to jump right into the action and not "waste" time walking to everywhere. Having said that, Morrowind kind of "forced" the player to walk to a lot of places (at least one trip, and you can just recall back). As a result, I was extremely attached to the game because I felt that I was more immersed into it.
I would certainly place myself in the first group, but I don't hate the functionality of Fast Travel. It's a slick system, especially when you don't have that much time to play the game on a daily bases. Thus, my argument is that if the game allows the player to turn it off at the beginning of an adventure (similar to the hardcoe mode option in new vegas), I think it would "force" the player to not being able to fast travel.
I see the argument of people saying that if you don't want to fast travel then don't use it, and this is perfectly legit. But that isn't the problem. People don't hate the ACTION of fast travel, they hate the sheer CAPABILITY of fast travel ANYWHERE (this is key). This is why people don't complain about the silt strider and the mage guild teleportion and the boat rides so much. These are all actions of fast travel, but they are limited to a couple of locations.
I don't know if that makes much sense. Hopefully it does.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:00 am

The solution is disable enable in the guy, so everybody gets happy.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:48 pm

If a large open world with this much content already off the beaten path (dungeons, ruins, shrines, etc. etc.) - assuming you don't have or use a walkthrough - isn't enough incentive to explore, then adding random loot chests won't be either imo.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:06 pm

I see the argument of people saying that if you don't want to fast travel then don't use it, and this is perfectly legit. But that isn't the problem. People don't hate the ACTION of fast travel, they hate the sheer CAPABILITY of fast travel ANYWHERE (this is key). This is why people don't complain about the silt strider and the mage guild teleportion and the boat rides so much. These are all actions of fast travel, but they are limited to a couple of locations.

They can simply ask Acadian how he can role-play so much under vanilla Oblivion :shrug:

Self-inflicted barrier: "I can't do this" and "I can't do that". The very existence of fast travel is what annoys the first group, since it empowers their true feeling: "I WANT TO GODDANG USE FAST TRAVEL JUST BECAUSE I CAN! DANG!"

The second group, IMO simply wants that you can see what you're doing while fast traveling, that's all. It doesn't matter how they achieve it, as long as they don't "teleport" there, since it gives the illusion "I'm actually going there by myself! Good job, me!", there is also the added benefit for role-playing (going somewhere the actual way you'd generally go there) and the fact that you can see the sceneries like a slideshow (good for relaxing), but that's more like secondary issue

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:03 am

Dilemma? What dilemma?

No one forces you to use fast travel. So where is the issue? You don't like it, then don't use it, duh. As simple as that. Nothing at all needs to be changed. Why would you need to force the lack of fast travel for players? Sometimes, when I'm making my character go from a place I know to another place I know, fast travel helps to not make things slow and boring. I would never like fast travel to disappear: I want to explore and wander in the game world because I choose it, not because I'm forced to.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:28 pm

I understand people who dont like Fast Travel because it replaced the Travel Services from Morrowind (even thought they could role-play it, since TS ware like FT with few text boxes and limitation, but the ,,travel'' itself was identical, even thought I can somewhat understand how people see this as immersion-breaking), but seeing how the community is split on the subject AND the fact that RDR was able to pull both off at the same time PERFECTLY I can actually see Beth doing the same for Skyrim, but hey what might I know.

What I dont get are people saying it ruins exploration and should be toggable or even removed altogether. Just because you lack will-power does not mean you can rob other people from theyr enjoyment of this game, and toggability not only is practicly pointless, but also wastes code and time, which could be used to, for example, program spear animations or something. Im just saying that resources are resources and no matter how small they all add up later on untill your left without eather time or space to do something meaningfull, so wasting both on such pointless feature would hurt the game, slightly but still. Meaby we should add toggable save/load feature aswell? Or meaby toggable ability to change resolution of the game? I mean this type of thinking is just bizarre.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:51 am

Don't get me wrong, I dont mind fast travel, and I dont mind regular travel services either. I just hate the people that complain as if Bethesda is forcing people to fast travel when it's always been an option.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:58 am

They can simply ask Acadian how he can role-play so much under vanilla Oblivion :shrug:

Self-inflicted barrier: "I can't do this" and "I can't do that". The very existence of fast travel is what annoys the first group, since it empowers their true feeling: "I WANT TO GODDANG USE FAST TRAVEL JUST BECAUSE I CAN! DANG!"

The second group, IMO simply wants that you can see what you're doing while fast traveling, that's all. It doesn't matter how they achieve it, as long as they don't "teleport" there, since it gives the illusion "I'm actually going there by myself! Good job, me!", there is also the added benefit for role-playing (going somewhere the actual way you'd generally go there) and the fact that you can see the sceneries like a slideshow (good for relaxing), but that's more like secondary issue

Yea, I agree with that. Can you elaborate on Acadian and his deeds? I don't know too much about this vanilla Oblivion.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:40 am

I don't know too much about this vanilla Oblivion.
vanilla just means no mods.

I think everyone is missing the biggest problem with fast travel: there is no alternative. No way back but walking when you venture into the cruel wilds of eastern Cyrodil? Ya, that's cool. Walking along the utterly barren road from Anvil to the Imperial city and back to ask someone for 200 gold or some stupid quest like that? Lame. Same deal for the magical compass- some quests don't give you directions at all because they expect you to blindly follow the red arrow like usual.

If the game was built around not having fast travel and then the feature was tacked on at the end, then it would be just an option.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:25 am

Dilemma? What dilemma?

Thread? What thread? All I see is a thread title. I'll just leave an ignorant rant there.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:22 am

Oblivion has this function I guess this work in the console to: EnableFastTravel 0

probably true on PC, but I have xbox. I don't know how to get to the console in xbox. M$ nerfed it.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:59 pm

If the choice is between Morrowind style,as in it gets you closer not close, and Oblivion style point and click I greatly prefer Oblivion.If it is between a useful travel system,ala RDR, and Oblivion the choice gets more difficult.

I think we would all like a togglable option to optionaly toggle off the togglable options.If the Devs would be kind enough to do this we would all be grateful

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:46 am

Yeah Mark/Recall was great in morrowind. So such a system would be nice. But to be honest, if u wanna play without quicktravel.. then simply dont use it.