Some monsters are invisible : IV

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:39 am

Some monsters in my game (such as Snow Leopards and Snow bears) are entirely invisible. I'm running FCOM and have tried re-arranging my load order but can't seem to pinpoint the issue.
Tried using BOSS and swept through with TES4edit. Can't use Wyre Bash as the proceeding files needed to run it seem to cause something of a heartburn in my computer.

Spoiler

Oblivion.esm
All Natural Base.esm
Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm
Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm
Tamrielic Ingredients.esm
Cobl Main.esm
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm
Mart's Monster Mod.esm
Mart's Monster Mod for OOO.esm
FCOM_Convergence.esm
Better Cities Resources.esm
CustomSpellIcons.esm
VampireFaceBugFix.esm
Kvatch Rebuilt.esm
Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
DLCShiveringIsles.esp
Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - SI.esp
Better Cities .esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp
Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp
LoadingScreens.esp
LoadingScreensSI.esp
Natural_Weather_by_Max_Tael.esp
Natural_Weather_HDR_by_Max_Tael.esp
Natural_Habitat_by_Max_Tael.esp
All Natural.esp
All Natural - SI.esp
Immersive Interiors.esp
Immersive Interiors - Lights Addon.esp
Natural_Water_by_Max_Tael.esp
Real Lava v1.2.esp
Echo_ChapelChant.esp
Storms & Sound.esp
All Natural - Real Lights.esp
Cities Alive At Night.esp
IWR-Lights.esp
IWR-Windows.esp
IWR-Shutters.esp
AliveWaters.esp
AliveWaters - Koi Addon.esp
AliveWaters - Slaughterfish Addon.esp
Ayleid Loot EXtension.esp
Ayleid Loot EXtension - OOO Dungeons.esp
Book Jackets Oblivion.esp
CT-Com's Torch Compendium.esp
M.O.E. - Undermined Leveled Gameplay - Creature Edition.esp
M.O.E. - Undermined Leveled Gameplay - Item Edition.esp
Morrowind Ingredients.esp
P1DrobesOver.esp
Living Economy.esp
Living Economy - Items.esp
Cutthroat Merchants.esp
Get Wet v0.92.esp
Spell Delete And Item Remove.esp
DLCHorseArmor.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - HorseArmor.esp
DLCOrrery.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - Orrery.esp
DLCVileLair.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - VileLair.esp
DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - MehrunesRazor.esp
DLCSpellTomes.esp
Book Jackets DLC.esp
GrimbotsSpellTomes.esp
AyleidFiringa.esp
Banes Guilds United.esp
M.O.E. - New Staffs, Blight and Ashstorms.esp
M.O.E. - Unlocked Palace Guard Armour.esp
M.O.E. - Unlocked Dremora Armour and Robes.esp
M.O.E. - Unlocked Glenroy and Captain Renault Blades Armour.esp
Mithril and Orcish Weapon Sets by Ionis.esp
lootableSIArmor.esp
Town_Ceremonial_Armor.esp
Dude Wheres My Horse.esp
DLCThievesDen.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - ThievesDen.esp
Tamrielic_Ingredients_cOMbo.esp
Cobl Glue.esp
Cobl Si.esp
Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp
Cheat Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp
Oblivion WarCry EV.esp
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
OOO-Water_Weeds.esp
Alluring Potion Bottles v3.esp
OOO 1.32-Cobl.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Additional Enemy NPC Vars.esp
FCOM_Convergence.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Durability & Damage.esp
FCOM_SpawnRatesSlightlyReduced.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Extra Wounding.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Looting NPCs & Creatures.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Foxes.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Gems & Gem Dust.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Hunting & Crafting.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse Creature Skins.esp
Mart's Monster Mod for OOO.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse Imperial Armor.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Friendlier Factions MMM+Fran.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Friendlier Factions OOO+FCOM.esp
LoadingScreens-OOO.esp
Tamrielic_Ingredients.esp
MMM-Cobl.esp
Ancient Ruins - Ayleid Edition.esp
AyleidArrows.esp
Bandit Hideouts.esp
BrotherhoodRenewed.esp
BrotherhoodRenewed - Oblivion XP Patch.esp
Del_New_Sheoth_Homes.esp
Gaenor in Dementia.esp
hackdirtabyss.esp
Corpse_Kvatch.esp
M.O.E. - Tools of Kagrenac - The Secret of White Gold Tower.esp
M.O.E. - The Black Sacrament - Night Mother's Ritual.esp
Scribe Supplies.esp
sunk ships.esp
TempleOfZealotsV2.esp
The Ayleid Steps.esp
VaultsofCyrodiilBC.esp
Cliff_RankDependantArenaSpectators.esp
DLCBattlehornCastle.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - Battlehorn.esp
DLCfrostcrag.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - FrostCrag.esp
BrumaMGRestored.esp
BrumaMGRestored-Frostcrag.esp
Knights.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - Knights.esp
M.O.E. - Visit Valen Dreth Topic.esp
The Lost Spires.esp
Mighty Umbra.esp
Mighty Umbra - Vanilla OB.esp
MannimarcoComplete.esp
MannimarcoRevisited.esp
MannimarcoRevisitedOOO.esp
Shadowcrest_Vineyard.esp
FCOM_Knights.esp
Better daedric shrines Namira.esp
Better daedric shrines sanguine.esp
Better daedric shrines Sheogorath.esp
better daedric shrines Meridia.esp
Better daedric shrines Clavicus.esp
Better daedric shrines Vaermina.esp
better daedric shrines Nocturnal.esp
Better daedric shrine Pyriate.esp
xuldarkforest.esp
xulStendarrValley.esp
xulTheHeath.esp
XulEntiusGorge.esp
xulFallenleafEverglade.esp
xulColovianHighlands_EV.esp
xulChorrolHinterland.esp
xulBeachesOfCyrodiilLostCoast.esp
xulBravilBarrowfields.esp
xulLushWoodlands.esp
xulAncientYews.esp
xulAncientRedwoods.esp
xulCloudtopMountains.esp
xulArriusCreek.esp
xulPatch_AY_AC.esp
xulRollingHills_EV.esp
xulPantherRiver.esp
xulRiverEthe.esp
xulBrenaRiverRavine.esp
xulImperialIsle.esp
xulBlackwoodForest.esp
xulCheydinhalFalls.esp
xulAspenWood.esp
xulSkingradOutskirts.esp
xulSnowdale.esp
xulCliffsOfAnvil.esp
Natural_Vegetation_by_Max_Tael.esp
Harvest [Flora].esp
Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp
Harvest [Flora] - DLCVileLair.esp
Harvest [Flora] - DLCFrostcrag.esp
Happyhannah's Time Wasting.esp
Cliff_BetterLetters.esp
Furniture Repriced.esp
M.O.E. - Bone Names and Priced Skull.esp
M.O.E. - Travel Services.esp
M.O.E. - Lucien Lachance Rumors Fix.esp
M.O.E. - Icons for Mythic Dawn Armour - Fix.esp
M.O.E. - Lycanthropy and Lichcraft.esp
M.O.E. - Realistic Prices, Realistic Weights, No Quest Items.esp
M.O.E. - New Classes.esp
MYR_AyleidKing.esp
P1DkeyChain.esp
Prox - Arena Loot v1.1.esp
Salmo the Baker, Cobl.esp
ScriptIcon_Replacer.esp
M.O.E. - Alternative Script Effect Icon I.esp
M.O.E. - Alternative Script Effect Icon II.esp
M.O.E. - Hunger Effects.esp
M.O.E. - Fatigue Loss from Running.esp
ReducedBackwardsRunningSpeed.esp
Jump_Adjustment-2211.esp
M.O.E. - Vampire Players Scarier.esp
AyleidWeaponEnchantments_balance.esp
M.O.E. - Ethereal State Spell.esp
M.O.E. - Levitation Magic.esp
M.O.E. - Lock Spells.esp
M.O.E. - Mythic Dawn Powers.esp
M.O.E. - Teleportation Magic and Icarian Flight.esp
RefScope.esp
MidasSpells.esp
Jjiinx_Enhanced Disease.esp
Syc_AtHomeAlchemy.esp
EnchantmentRestore.esp
EnchantmentRestore_Wells.esp
M.O.E. - Realistic Law Enforcement - Part One.esp
M.O.E. - Realistic Law Enforcement - Part Two.esp
SM Bounty.esp
sycHearNoEvil.esp
Adrenaline Fuelled Archery- Bow Sway.esp
Fiery Fists v1.2.esp
Oblivion XP.esp
Oblivion XP - The Ayleid Steps.esp
Francesco's Slower skills x1.5.esp
M.O.E. - Better Icon for Script Effects.esp
M.O.E. - Unlocked Hairstyles.esp
M.O.E. - Playable Dremora and Custom Race Fix.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - Resized Races.esp
Better Cities Full.esp
Better Cities - VWD of the IC.esp
Better Imperial City.esp
Better Cities Full FPS Patch.esp
Better Cities - Unique Landscape Barrowfields.esp
Better Cities - Unique Landscape Chorrol Hinterland.esp
Better Cities - Unique Landscape Cheydinhal Falls.esp
Better Cities - Unique Landscape Skingrad Outskirts.esp
Better Imperial City FPS Patch.esp
Better Cities - The Lost Spires.esp
Better Cities - Unique Landscape Imperial Isle.esp
Francesco's 10 days respawn time - 1-20 day lenght rescale.esp
P1DshieldNoGlow.esp
Duke Patricks - BASIC Script Effect Silencer.esp
Duke Patricks - BASIC Script Effect Silencer NIF REMOVED.esp
FastTravelDoubleFaceFix.esp
Better daedric shrine Azura.esp
Better daedric shrines malacath.esp
Better daedric shrine Hircine.esp
Better daedric shrines molag bal.esp
Give Merhunes' Razor to Martin.esp
EnchantingFreedom.esp
Better Clocks for Better Cities.esp
Kvatch Rebuilt.esp
Kvatch Rebuilt - Leveled Guards - FCOM.esp
Kvatch Rebuilt - OOO Compatibility.esp

I realise my load order is a mess (despite the BOSS) as I'm not very adept at cleaning it through. I intend to remove files like graphics extender because I simply can't get them to work without Bash.
As a result of this I also seem to get a lot of CTD's, though not at any specific point. If anyone can advise me on this too, it would be well appreciated.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:59 am

If you can't use Wrye Bash, you can't use FCOM, period.

You'll either need to address that problem, or uninstall FCOM.

You also can't use All Natural without Wrye Bash, either.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:09 am

... I've been using FCOM for about three months now.
This is the only problem I've -ever- experienced with it. I can use FCOM quite well, it seems.

Edit: And All Natural is working fine, that isn't even giving me problems. Not sure where you're getting this from.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:59 am

Please read the installation instructions again. Wrye Bash is required.

There is no way around that. Required is required.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:17 am

I honestly don't care if your word is final, I have MMM, OOO, WarCry and Francescos all running on my game and I've never used Wyre Bash before. That's fact, not opinion.
I've used bashed patches (well, merged patches) through ES4EDIT before. However recently the merged patch seems to cause crash to desktop, and deactivating it is the only way to let the game run, I can't quite explain it.

Telling me my game is Impossible isn't really helping. It works, I don't use WB, that's all that needs to be said.
I am however having a load order issue that's making my animals invisible (which hasn't happened before, it must have been caused by my recent tinkering)

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:32 am

Then I'll let the FCOM team have the floor now. I daresay you'll find our minds think alike.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:32 pm

Really now, how is this in any way helpful? You're pestering me over something I don't even care about.

I am listening to you, however the fact my game CAN and DOES run FCOM right now rather proves you mistaken. Maybe in the future I'll be able to cure my computer of it's Wyre Bash allergy, but that isn't what's concerning me right now. And fine, if any members of the FCOM team could help me, that would be grand. They would however have to accept that I installed it without WB.
I don't get why that's so hard to accept, it must be possible, I know nothing about modding and *I* did it.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:06 pm

Use the links in my signature, you do need a Bashed Patch for FCOM. You seem to have most of the essentials, but you need to clean house in your Load Order by using BOSS and the BOSSlog to get rid of extra mods and esps you do not want - then you can build a Bashed Patch and enjoy getting killed by Reavers and Balrogs.
EDIT there is a Stand Alone version of Wrye Bash 291 that does not require Wrye Python available on TESNexus, and it works for me.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:44 am

Use the links in my signature, you do need a Bashed Patch for FCOM. You seem to have most of the essentials, but you need to clean house in your Load Order by using BOSS and the BOSSlog to get rid of extra mods and esps you do not want - then you can build a Bashed Patch and enjoy getting killed by Reavers and Balrogs.

But I'm already being [censored] by Reavers.
I can get FCOM to work just fine without Wyre Bash, as I said before. It's this conflict that's making my Leopards invisible that's the problem.

Frost giants, spiders, weird headless knights, I have all of those and they're working just swell.
I've looked through BOSSlog, and de-activated all the eps's that aren't required. Haven't removed them from the Load order though, but they aren't in the game.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:13 pm

Really now, how is this in any way helpful? You're pestering me over something I don't even care about.

I am listening to you, however the fact my game CAN and DOES run FCOM right now rather proves you mistaken. Maybe in the future I'll be able to cure my computer of it's Wyre Bash allergy, but that isn't what's concerning me right now. And fine, if any members of the FCOM team could help me, that would be grand. They would however have to accept that I installed it without WB.
I don't get why that's so hard to accept, it must be possible, I know nothing about modding and *I* did it.

The trouble is they will not accept this. Oblivion is extremely rigid when it comes to how you can mod it, and breaking those rules causes lots of problems.

That's the point I am trying to get across. If you can't install Wrye Bash, then no support for your FCOM setup is possible. I'm sorry, but without Bash, we can't help you.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:43 pm

Well that's considerably more reasonable than saying my setup is impossible. I can understand that help might be harder to provide if I don't have it, that's fine. I might try sorting out the WB rejection before moving on with the issue if that's the case. I've had considerably few problems with FCOM without it though, literally just this and one unfortunate incident involving Black Sun soldiers with swords in their faces. I cleared that up though just be re-arranging the esp's. Right now I'll likely only use WB for the Bashed Patch.
Unless that causes my to CTD like the TES4Edit one does.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:22 am

Use the links in my signature, you do need a Bashed Patch for FCOM. You seem to have most of the essentials, but you need to clean house in your Load Order by using BOSS and the BOSSlog to get rid of extra mods and esps you do not want - then you can build a Bashed Patch and enjoy getting killed by Reavers and Balrogs.
EDIT there is a Stand Alone version of Wrye Bash 291 that does not require Wrye Python available on TESNexus, and it works for me.

There's a stand alone version? That could help significantly.
I shall search it out now, but I've only found the Python version thus far.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:59 am

What you have is a combination of Francesco's, Martigens Monster Mod and Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul, but you are running into invisible creatures because you are having resources for one mod overwriting another. I do not know what version of any of the mods you have actually are, but the creatures that are invisible are probably from OOO. Deactivating an esp does not mean the meshes and textures used by the esp are removed.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:43 am

Quite possibly true, though it is a very rare thing. I don't think I have any inactive ESPs that would pose a threat currently to that, I recall fixing an issue with a particular monster by re-installing OOO and 'overwriting' whatever issue had come up since then. As you can probably tell I'm not very knowledgable to how these things work.
And annoyingly I'll never be able to tell if it's solved unless I specifically hunt down one of these monsters (which if invisible, will prove hard!)

I found the Standalone WB and shall attempt it now.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:43 am

Have a look at the Wrye Bash Basics Guide if new to using it, in my sig on TESNexus.

You only need the first pdf for basic usage. Just open it in whatever pdf reader you have installed, at the same time as Wrye Bash a flick between the two till you get used to using it. Good luck.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:07 am

Hah, just installed your PDF's a moment ago.
Don't seem to be any evident problems on first glance (save for the 'MOE Realistic prices' being highlighted blood red).

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:24 am

Well I ran through all the checks and balances of the Wyre Bash basics, created the patch and cleaned up the suggested mods.
And now my game crashes to desktop whenever I load a save! Yay!

I really am in over my head with this, far too complicated for my liking. I'm trying to fix whatever game killing errors it made me do, but I can't seem to work out why it considers my 'Better clocks for better cities' to have delinquant master files. They're loading beforehand and don't seem to be causing any trouble otherwise.

Edit: Also, after turning off the Lock and using OMM (since I can't work out how to move mods around in WB) I've found it's also deactivated a ton of my active mods. That's annoyed me considerably because I can't remember which ones I've been able to make work together after all this time and it's ruined some considerable tweaking on my part.
Still can't fix the CTD errors its giving me either.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:23 pm

Well I ran through all the checks and balances of the Wyre Bash basics, created the patch and cleaned up the suggested mods.
And now my game crashes to desktop whenever I load a save! Yay!

I really am in over my head with this, far too complicated for my liking. I'm trying to fix whatever game killing errors it made me do, but I can't seem to work out why it considers my 'Better clocks for better cities' to have delinquant master files. They're loading beforehand and don't seem to be causing any trouble otherwise.

Could you post your BOSS aligned Load Order from Wrye Bash? To do this left click on the file header in Wrye Bash and select List Mods, This will give a list of your active mods with the version numbers. Clocks of Cyrodill requires a different esp when used with mods like Better Cities.
I am not familiar with the M.O.E. plugins, but I can help with some of the others.
EDIT to move mods up or down with Wrye Bash, you highlight the mod by clicking on it, and press and hold the right Ctrl key, then use the arrows to move it up or down, or you can hold the Ctrl key and drag and drop the esp in your Load Order.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:52 am

I'm trying to fix whatever game killing errors it made me do, but I can't seem to work out why it considers my 'Better clocks for better cities' to have delinquant master files. They're loading beforehand and don't seem to be causing any trouble otherwise.

A delinquent master shows up when one of your mods has a patch or other dependent mod loading before the actual mod. In this case, "better clocks for better cities" is loading before the actual Better Cities mod. That needs to be corrected.

As for the FCOM issue, yes, a bashed patch is required for it to work. Period. THAT is a fact and has been so since its inception. Whatever content from the constituent mods you're seeing now is what asserts itself if you don't patch the thing properly. It may not seem like it, but you are in fact missing quite a bit.

All Natural absolutely requires the bashed patch in order to function properly. It will function, but without the patch, your interior weather support will be shot and won't be able to synch up properly with the exterior weather. Often times not making proper use of the patch will go so far as to cause rain or snow to fall indoors.

Mod authors list requirements for a reason, and many of them won't offer support for problems YOU cause by not following the proper procedures.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:20 pm

Well as unecessarily aggressive as that seemed.

As a perfect illustration of why I've avoided using a system like Wyre Bash for so long, after following all suggestions of BOSS (such as upgrading my MMM and removing several Esps) and creating a Bashed patch to incorporate the mods I'm trying to run, my game has now become unplayable. If I try and run it with the Bashed patch I get an immediate crash to desktop on loading a save, and even if I run it without the bashed patch (which I should add, is the same assortment of mods I've previously been able to run without problems) I now get CTD when entering a load area.

I really do wish I understood these matters better because I know it's only causing more trouble, but I knew from the start using WB would screw me over because it's much too complicated for me. I've been using just OMM for a long while and it served me pretty darn well. Had it not been for this one mesh-less creature out of all then I wouldn't have seen fit to change anything at all.
Now I can't even get my game to load a cell. It's quite distressing.

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:57 pm

If that your load order from above then fcom would have never worked because you had no bash to correct leveledlist items / creatures etc..Plus you have MMMforOOO loaded has well and that would cancel out most of fcom.

Has for you missing Snow Leopard , creatures..Most likely you do not have OOO Resource's Installed Correctly, or MMM.bsa renamed Correctly for the config you are using once again..

Sometimes it is better to just uninstall everything and reinstall everything and start all over.

Espically when things start breaking down and you are not using the required tools..

You do not need bash to play MMMforOOO..But you need BASH to play FCOM..

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:50 am

Well as unecessarily aggressive as that seemed.

This 'aggressiveness' stems from the fact that we expect you to have done things and follow certain instructions which you have not. I know you are trying to rectify that now, but that's the general reaction around here if you don't follow instructions.

As for CorePC, I have to agree with him there. Your installation is a mess and you should definitely consider starting over.

Consider giving http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/?page=site_about a look-over. The information there is immensely helpful.

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:49 pm

To help much further you really have to re-post your load order - preferably through Wrye Bash.
It is actually not that surprising that your new load order might crash your game, instead of just having the errors it used to have, if in doing so you ended up with more errors, or even already had some that were being overridden previously.

For instance, looking at your original load order (not being familiar with FCOM at all) I immediately noticed this:

Natural_Weather_by_Max_Tael.espNatural_Weather_HDR_by_Max_Tael.esp...All Natural.esp

I am sure that the All Natural readme clearly state not to run it alongside other weather mods.
But even then; I am also pretty sure that Natural Weather is rather explicit that you install the HDR version only if using HDR, OR install the other (first one listed above) if you are not, and never both.

This too doesn't seem right:

M.O.E. - Alternative Script Effect Icon I.espM.O.E. - Alternative Script Effect Icon II.esp

Nor this:

Duke Patricks - BASIC Script Effect Silencer.espDuke Patricks - BASIC Script Effect Silencer NIF REMOVED.esp

All this suggests that your primary problem is that you have failed to read through the installation instructions in building your load order. Who knows how many errors have crept in as a result?

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:23 am

@Vargr: Thanks, I was making a list of likely plugin conflicts and about to list the same as you.

@OP:I have been modding my game for several years, keeping up with all the latest and greatest tools and utilities and of course the best immersion mods. With this in mind, attempt FCOM+MMM+OOO install is only for the strong at heart and mind. Getting obtuse and refusing to use the tools or suggestions given is not conducive to YOUR OWN happy gaming. Reading installation instructions and going by the letter will get you what you want. The ppl who have posted before me are some of the more prominent and knowledgable users on this site and you react with naive and childish retort, expecting your game to magically become righted. You should start from scratch, with a newly congenial and respectful attitude toward those who offer EXPERT advice on getting YOUR game to run as it should. There are other likely culprits in your load order, for example, you have a patch for Oblivion XP, but no Oblivion XP. You have Vampire face fix, and that is fixed with Unofficial Oblivion Patch. My gosh, like everything in your load order needs OBSE and Wrye to have ANY sort of compatibility. Really, C'mon...did you read ANY descriptions before installing?

From "Cool Hand Luke"

"S-some men, you just can't reach..."

» Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:59 pm

All Natural absolutely requires the bashed patch in order to function properly. It will function, but without the patch, your interior weather support will be shot and won't be able to synch up properly with the exterior weather. Often times not making proper use of the patch will go so far as to cause rain or snow to fall indoors.

Hah, thanks you reminded me i forgot to do that for all natural. Was wondering why the weather still kept changing so suddenly...