Orsinium must still exist because at the start of the game the Imperial taking your name says that your remains will be returned to it.

Or, as is more likely nowadays, it was an oversight introduced by an unaware developer or writer for the voice actors.

There is no evidence that Orsinium exists anywhere else in the game; all we are told about it in the 4th Era is that it was destroyed again by the Bretons and Redguards.

One of the loading screens also mentions that Orcs come from Orsinium, and there's also info about were it is somewhere. I don't think the existence of Orsinium, at least during 4E 201, can be denied.

An honor-bound orc? I'd say they'd definitely be adverse to stalking the shadows and killing enemies before they had a chance to defend themselves. If you've ever read http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-how-orsinium-passed-orcs, you'll know what I'm talking about.

I see Orsinium as being kind of like Eridug.. It keeps getting razed and rebuilt over time, not necessarily in the same space, but still.

Orcish honor

I like to equate Malacath with Divayth Fyr's opinion of Mehrunes Dagon. Blunt, straightforward, and without deceit. Granted, perhaps a clumsier version of Dagon, Malacath represents the Bloody Oath. Clumsy as far as lawful-fellows getting strung up by their own words; Malacath probably finds great importance in promises, swears, oaths, covenants, etc.

Probably why the Orcs ended up so "strong. Robust. Whichever." In terms of oratory, eloquence takes less priority than clarity and effectiveness. Just Smash That Thing's Head in, Already. Why so subtle?

and now i'm laughing

They also had to make do with whatever they could strung up. So, axes and hammers were preferred, as they were also tools, and learned how to make the most out of everything. Also, a giant pot lid is an effective armor on the cheap, and injuries will slow one down.

Someone said earlier in this thread that Orsimer are like lions.

I would honestly compare it more to wolves, which have a somewhat similar structure (although the chief not doing much is more akin to the lions), but basically, imagine the sort of honor that pack-hunters like lions or wolves have, and you have the "honor" of the Orsimer.

It is not the honor of formalized rules that are created to give the knightly classes the "fair fight" they know they have an indisputable advantage in due to better equipment and training, but rather, the "honor" of knowing that the legitimacy of their accomplishments rests upon the strength and worthiness of their opponents, and that there will always be a greater foe to face the next day. To slack, to take the easy way out through cheating or belittling their foes through unnecessary deceit is to give themselves a lesser challenge to strive against. Play a sport or a game like chess, and you'll see that the fastest way to become a better player is to play against someone better than you, even knowing you're going to get your clock cleaned. Strength comes from defeating strong foes, weakening your foes will only make yourself soft in the long run, and softness leads to death.

With that said, no lion and no wolf just blunders headlong into their prey. Pack hunters always use subterfuge - they have to, their prey is often faster and larger than they are. They'd hunt alone if they could just kill their prey toe-to-toe. Wolves and lions are ambush predators, and to be unaware of your surroundings is just another form of softness to be exploited.

Of course, this isn't alien to all forms of honorable martial codes, as well. The Samurai carried their blades with them at all times specifically because they were always considered valid military targets for assassination or duels. There is even a school of martial arts that specifically trains for how to respond to assassins jumping out at you from every angle of attack and from every starting position (such as being in bed or kneeling in prayer if you are attacked at your local shrine) just because being ambushed was a fact of life. Oddly, this school of martial arts is still taught to businessmen, of all things, as it is supposed to be a way of training yourself to always focus upon the minor details and always be alert, even during your down time.

The Orsimer are ruled by the coldest and harshest laws of nature, so essentially, "might makes right" may not necessarily be true, but not being mighty makes you dead, and then nobody's going to care how right you may or may not have been.

Oh, one more thing I just remembered...

Real-life lion prides and wolf packs will have their female members spend their entire lives in their pride or pack, just like with the strongholds, but will exile their sons when they are old enough to survive on their own.

Why? Well...

Remember how the orcs in the stronghold said that every female is either the chieftan's mother, daughter, or wife? And all the younger orcish women would refer to all the other orcish women as either a sister, their mother, or an aunt because of that?

Well, consider that when the son kills his father and takes over, every woman in that stronghold will either be his mother, his aunt, his sister, or his grandmother or grandaunt. His mother becomes wise woman, and none of those are daughters, and every woman that isn't his mother or his daughter is his...

I'm guessing that either Bethesda didn't think this one through, or was hoping we wouldn't think this one through.

They actually did address this in two ways, one quite humorous.
In general, orc chiefs marry women from other fortresses. The orc follower you can get in the farthest western stronghold alludes to this when complaining that she'll have to be sent off to marry some chief she's never met.

In the farthest east stronghold, by Kynesgrove, the chief doesn't have a living wife and his kids very subtly suggest that he might be a bit too close to their aunts :whistling:

Clearly, orc chieftains are Japanese video game protagonists.

Anyway, to expound on what I said earlier, the notion that the males become the wanderers, while the females form the basis of the pack is a major part of the overwhelming majority of social mammal behaviors. The males are, basically, more expendable. If a single male will be given multiple females to breed with, anyway, then it's perfectly fine to lose two or three in the wilds as they search for a new social group to join up with. The females (especially as they do most of the work in some species) are more precious, and so will be kept in the safety of the pack/pride/whatever with their sisters, aunts, nieces, mother, and daughters. They also require explicit trust for their coordination as pack hunters, so being blood kin to their fellow pack hunters is a plus, as well, as it is difficult for outsiders from the pack to gain that trust.

Some forms of monkey and ape actually have the most advanced non-human social groups, and the women actually dominate the life of their groups, since even though the male versions of the apes and monkeys are significantly larger than the female versions, the females' family bond means they can cohesively wield enough force against their more solitary males to force them to bow to their pressure.

The other aspect of this, however, is that such social groups have a very distinct social hierarchy that is practically a caste system. The alpha female is total social queen bee, and every female is ranked in order below her, and the low-level females (and their children) are last to eat, and first to starve in the event of hard times.

One more thing about wolves and lions, though - the females don't actually all produce offspring. Only the alpha and beta wolves/lionesses are allowed to breed. The lower-ranking female members of the pack, however, go into sympathetic birthing, however (a sort of "fake pregnancy" that causes them to begin lactating), and actually nurse the young of the alpha and beta wolves. This is because the top females, being the primary hunters of the pack, are necessary for the pack's survival, so they can't take too much time off from hunting. These delta or lower wolves and lionesses are typically the older and slower aunts and mothers or just weaker sisters of the alphas and betas. As less capable hunters, they are stuck with the unsavory jobs like watching the kids.

If I had to guess I'd say they were something like respectable knights.

Why is everyone referencing biology not anthropology? Men and mer are not beasts.

Also, it strikes me that your average orc would be more interested in survival than 'honour', at least when dealing with enemies/outsiders- leave conncern for the proper forms of combat some Breton or Imperial who has the luxury to think about such things. Mind you, the legion must have had a strong cultural influence on the Orsimer by this point. Remember Sir-What's-Her-Name in Oblivion?

Individuals vary. But true, this isn't the Dueling Code of 1777. For Orcs, honor and survival probably go hand in hand. A different connotation of honor, where day-to-day life involves violence and injury.

Kind of like "fair play" and "private ownership" to the Khajiit -- the closest translation they have in their language is "foolishness."

Sir Mazoga the Orc.

The line between "beast" and "man" is non-existent, all differences between so-called "animals" and sentient beings are just matters of degree.
Anthropology and human behaviors are sometimes very complicated and difficult for the mind to penetrate, so it can be elucidating to examine the relatively simpler social behavior of "animals" first. Once that is understood it can be used as a base from which to approach more complex human affairs.
And the root of all behavior, human or animal, is biological.
That's presumably why one might bring up biology and zoology in a discussion that seems to pertain more to anthropology.

I should have said 'human beings are not the animals they are compared with'. Naturally, everything we do has a biological basis- but other species are not human beings. The fact that we are so socially varied and complex also means that we cannot be studied in our 'natural habitat'- no such thing exists, and if it did, we could never be remotely objective about it. This might seem pedantic, but I've been noticing a lot of this sort of thing recently (not only on this forum), and I find it troubling. It is very easy to provide pseudo-scientific explanations for human behaviour by comparison with animals, but I suspect they reveal only the way we percieve ourselves.

Then again, Orsimer are not men and no doubt operate under unique biological conditions.

I was making an example of what came easiest for me to explain, plus anthropology is not my specialty. If you can find a close enough RL culture, go right [censored] ahead. The lion thing just stuck out the most, and most accessible.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to attack anyone, I was just a little puzzled. I suppose I could try and pull out an anthropological explanation, but I have a cold and my brain hurts.