I realise that it's too late to start talking about this now (I exhausted my motivation for forum discussion in the months leading up to Oblivion) but I'll say my piece.

I play the thief in ES, I find that it's the best way to experience the world as you move through it slowly, examining every square inch as you go. It takes time and patience to pilfer anything of use but it's always satisfying when you succeed. The whole point of this class is to have freedom of movement through otherwise inhospitable and secure areas. If you make the world too accessible to other classes, what is the point of playing the thief, other than to roleplay an impotent hero?

Oblivion [censored] in the face of the thief. You couldn't sell anything you stole without having affiliation with the thieves guild and there was a daedric artefact, which anyone could obtain, used to open just about any lock, a giant 'f' you for those who'd spent the time working up the skill and collecting lock picks.

Lock picking should be THE skill for opening doors. Magic is convenient up to a level but it should not expect to be opening lvl 100 mechanisms, let's keep it this way. The grace of the mage is in its utility, not in its ability to do everything better than dedicated skillsets (invisibility is too powerful).

I don't like the idea of dragons being in an ES game but that's fine. The problem is that they're at the top of the hierarchy insofar as enemies are concerned. I hope they aren't easy to kill, I don't care how cool the fight is if a level 5 character can down them, which brings me to my next point. If you make everything easy to defeat, what is the point of playing the thief?

The thief sneaks because he/she needs to avoid confrontation, not because it WANTS to. Some guards should be more powerful than the lowest level dragons, it's about gameplay not 'realism'.

If people can do anything they want whenever they want and succeed, then the game will have failed because it offers no challenge. I understand the need to cater to all these Fable lovers but don't compromise the game any more than you have.

Actually that is pretty realistic, that should be at least a few veteran guards who can take on dragons and give you a fight if they have to. On a side note, I have always felt that there should be more variations in stats for the same creature like how you will see a stronger version of a monster with the same name in some dungeons but apply it to everywhere randomly... ok... probably not a popular comment

I agree with everything that you say sir.

Im hoping that my experience with skyrim will go along the lines of > attempt to do something the first time> get my ass handed to me as i was not prepared for such an encounter. Go back and try again at a higher level and better preparations and still have difficulties.
I swear if i breeze through every situation without the game chewing me up and making me improve i will be a sad camper i will >_<

An extremely rare guard might be that strong, I agree, but the vast majority should not. Sometimes realism and gameplay go hand in hand.

EDIT: That said, I agree that Dragons should be very strong. A low level character should not be able to defeat even the weakest dragons without very clever tactics.

I mostly agree, but not with the guard part. A lone, singular guard being stronger than a dragon is just stupid. Guards should be dangerous because of their ability to swarm us with overwhelming numbers.

agreed. people that want to do anything and everything on one playthrough and think their character should be able to go anywhere in the game at level 1 svck.

i used the TIE and WAC mods for oblivion that completely removed all level scaling (bethesda take note). it made the game much more difficult but also much more real and satisfying. with the exception of roads and around cities which were safe, anywhere else you went you could either come across level 4 bandits or level 40 lichs. especially at lower levels this made going into a ruin or cave a much scarier proposition. you would sneak in and scope out the area first to see what was in there and depending on how deep you went the risk of running into something very high levels increased. as soon as an equivelent mod comes out for skyrim that removes level scaling will will be downloading that one right away.

and i hope they dont make it so that you can complete the main quest at level 1. you had better be level 50 before you even think about being able to take on high level dragons and alduin.

I agree. My mage character may well have open lock and invisibility, but she won't be any good at sneaking. I expect her to remain unseen if she casts invisibility, and stands still, but if she moves, the enemies should detect her a lot more easily than a trained thief, visible, but moving in shadow.

We dont even KNOW how tough dragons are to fight, the demo we've seen was in Todd mode and it was scripted to happen with the 2 same dragons.

Wait for the game before you judge it in this area.

Todd mode, beyond God mode.

I doubt you'll need to be level 50. That being said, I could appreciate you having to be level 50, but I think the reality may be closer to 35, depending on what you have as your skills of course.

It's not Todd mode, it's Godd mode! (see what I did there :tongue: )

While I would be pleasantly surprised if Skyrim was challenging straight out of the box, I have already resigned myself to the fact that mods will have to correct the ease of this game.

Some how over the years, super harcore insanity nightmare difficultly became easier than the "normal" settings we had 10-20 years ago.

Well since you cant control your levelling up this time around a la fallout 3 (as far as I am aware). dont expect level 1s to be doing much of anything for very long.

They have also already said while some areas level scale with you others are fixed meaning a level 5 char cant go everywhere and do everything.

also, if you want more of a combat challenge the difficulty sliders is right there in the menu and if that fails to the mod-a-tor-ium

While I love playin' me a good thief sometimes, the thing I hate about some games is that only thieves can open chests or doors or whatever because it required picking a lock or two. Very unrealistic. A warrior has a weapon that should be able to hack open a chest or door. Barring that, bashing them open with brute strength. Mages often have open lock spells... I wish I could remember which game it was, but there was one that ticked everyone off because not only were warriors and mages unable to open any of the chests strewn around the world, the thieves who COULD open them were rewarded with mostly junk, I think the common thing in the chests was "gold dust."

Play Demon Souls for challenging lol. XD or Dark Souls when it comes out. (woot!!)
I do agree that the game is a little bit to easy. Unless you turn up the difficuilty a bit when you first start without mods or anything. (Vanilla Player) I do hate how Deadric was a common item and Ebony was a rarity compared to it.
I just hope that Dragon armor is not really common where every person has it.
I think if you cast invisibilty you shouldn't get detected, you should be on like a "warning" If your foot steps are heavy or whatever.
And Mages can open locks just as easily as a thief or warrior.
Mage=Use a Spell (somewhat Stealthy, meduim chance of detection)
Thief=Use a lockpick, (more stealthy and less likely to get caught)
Warrior=Bash it open. (Not at all stealthy high percentage of detection)

should have strong guards,but not better than dragon,but better than regular bandits,but increase the amount of guards

I don't remember there being anything special about the hero in Oblivion, and he was able to defeat the Daedric Prince of Order and close countless Oblivion Gates.

Oh, and the only (apparent) difference between your character and a guard is your ability to use Thu'um, which isn't needed to be able to defeat a dragon, so why should it be impossible for a lone guard?

I kind of agree with what you say, the part I don't however is the Dragons.

By no means do I want Dragon fights to be easy, I want them to be the opposite in fact. I just would still be able to beat them at any level. I don't want it to be a fight of basic arithmetic level 20 > dragon. Level 15 < dragon. I want it to take real skill, and with such, the possibility (take notice to that point) of winning at every level. I hate games that just screw you over because of a arbitrary number.

That number is what makes these games what they are, the biggest variable to take account of. You might be able to dodge and predict the movement of a dragon at any level but to do any damage to it, without having spells resisted or attacks blocked, should take all day long when you first start out - with one mistake meaning death.

game with no challenge is a BORING

lol its dragon age bro.

I do both agree and disagree with you.

- In OB you could play a thief, but mostly you would also be some kind of assassin. Yes, it was hell too sell your item at times, but Thieves Guild solved that. Maybe it would be awesome to be able to sell everything everywhere, but then you would steal from someone and just sell it back to them again... RPG style!

I do however agree with you that it should be options for the sneaky assassin/thief, but I also think they have thought of this in Skyrim. At least to some degree.

When it comes to dragons.. well, I love dragons. From a thief point of view? Killing them is mostly optional (don't know about main quest etc, but random encounters they are optional) and you can just run away... like a thief.

Yeah, I agree with this. How did the merchants have the magical ability to detect what is stolen and what is normal goods, and the skeleton key did have the ability to open any lock, making the secuirity skill obsolete. I would rather have that artifact removed and replace with something else.

First, I disagree with this. Mages should be able to do everything, but not at a low level. They should start out rather weak and become very powerful. Second, invisibility was in no way overpowered. If anything, it needs a buff in Skyrim. The invisibility skill ended when ever you did anything. Opened a door, the spell is gone. Pick up an object, the spell is gone. I would agree with Chameleon.

I agree with this.

I kind of agree. On one hand, it creates a satisfying challenge for people who enjoy stealth. On the other hand, it's [censored]ting in the face of warriors. See that dungeon over there? Can't get through it without sneaking, svcks to be in heavy armor. See that dragon? svcks that your only stealth because there are no combat skills in stealth. See that guy with 100% magic resistant armor? Deal with it, mages.

I think that's the point of guilds. In the outer world, you'll have your dungeons and boss fights and bandits that anyone can handle, but in the guilds, there should be stuff only a mage can handle in the mages guild or only a warrior can handle in the warrior's guild. Other than that, the game would become unbalanced, and everyone would pick one class because that's the only class that can win. Really, gameplay shouldn't ALL be restricted because one part creates a challenge for one class. The gameplay in ES is meant to cater to different playstyles, not different challenges. Take for example, Players A, B, and C. Player A likes to bash skulls and have a satisfying duel with 3 bandits with the biggest hammer, so naturally, he'll play a Warrior. Player B likes to be the gosh dang batman, move quickly, quietly, and leave without a trace, so naturally, he plays Thief. Player C likes to hurl meteors and summon demons at his whim, so the obvious choice is Mage. It has nothing to do with challenge, just playstyle.

seriously, whats with all the Fable hate? Suddenly everyone thinks out of nowhere that Skyrim is going to be a lot like Fable when it doesn't feel/sound/look anything remotely like Fable. Fable wasn't a bad game either. It was just a more softcoe RPG.