So you didn't read the topic, right? Because I already responded to this issue.

Now, my response to this is that people who think like this have missed something very big about character creation. Character creation is not meant as a mechanic with which to limit your character with, but to give them a boost in a range of skills that you select, which due to the fact that all characters start out as advlts, we can reason to be that set of skills we spent our lives up until that point training, which comes to form our class.

You cannot say that "no matter what" Skyrim will level at the same speed as the older ES games, because my position is supported by the evidence and yours is about specifically omitting it

That ruins roleplaying for me personally. What if I was a powerful sorcerer who managed to get caught by that young naive mage at the wrong time no more than a year before the game starts? Does my sorcerer have to lose his powers over the course of a year?

Yes, because you start at level 1.

And that is it.

NOTE: this thread is in response to the class debate and is more or less based around the PAST games, not specifically Skyrim and Skyrim only.


Ok, so I've been basically lurking around here watching all the topics go by, and I got particularly interested in the classes issue today. So I thought I'd give my own responses to some common arguments against them that I saw. Sure I could go post in those topics (note that the ones I've been looking at are a little old) but due to this boards rate of posting, so to speak, it would likely get drowned out and pretty much go unheard. Plus, its a big post, so why not give it its own topic.

But anyway..

#1 - Defining yourself as you go

So, the basic argument here is that, when starting the game, you are forced to decide what you're character 'can' and 'cannot' do. You are forced to take up a class and decide on what skills you want to use for the rest of the game, when for most players who haven't already been through this situation a hundred times (as is the common thing for ES players to do) you don't even know if you'll end up using those skills or if they'll even be useful mid to end game, or even at all. Subsequent playthroughs more or less dissolve the problem but for those who use this argument the problem for them is still there.

Now, my response to this is that people who think like this have missed something very big about character creation. Character creation is not meant as a mechanic with which to limit your character with, but to give them a boost in a range of skills that you select, which due to the fact that all characters start out as advlts, we can reason to be that set of skills we spent our lives up until that point training, which comes to form our class.

Our characters start out with a significant portion of their lives already passed and unless you're trying to play a character that starts out as a simpleton who has all skills at level 5 (which is what Skyrim seems to be doing, but the same effect could have been had by the simple option of "No Class" and then letting us define our class as we go, giving us the option to change class names at will) , then you're naturally going to have a specific set of skills trained up until that point where you the player take control, and as such defining your class in the beginning not only serves a significant roleplaying (where was your character going? What did he do, why did he do it, for who or for what? Etc) and realism (even simpletons have some sort of skill) purpose, but also for gameplay purposes with the aforementioned boost mechanic.

In pure gameplay the class means nothing more than a simple boost in skills you think you will most likely use throughout the course of that character so that you don't have to spend time getting them up to such levels. And if you decide that you want to drop Long Blade and go for Blunt, but you only selected Long Blade as a Major Skill, then not all is lost. You simply sit and train blunt up to a comparable level to your Long Blade skill. The same thing is going to happen in Skyrim, but now we only have two (stupid) weapon skills. If you want to forgo one handed weapons for two handed weapons after having already maxed one handers you're going to fall in the same boat as if you decided on the same thing in Oblivion or Morrowind.

No matter what, you will always spend the same amount of time getting the skills you want to use up to usable levels whether theres a class system in place or not. So, I think, this issue of 'defining yourself as you go >> defining yourself in the beginning" is really just missing the point of the class system in the first place as no matter what the same amount of time is spent if you decide to use different skills compared to what you started out with. Truly, the only real problem with the class system is that it is fixed in the name area. And this is a simple matter of allowing Class Name/Descriptions to be changed at will.

The same arguments here can also be said about Birthsigns. True though it is that you shouldn't be able to change that at will, and thus this creates a problem of having a useless birthsign for your character, this issue can be more or less avoided by the fact that there are plenty of generic and less class specific birthsigns to choose which can benefit any character as equal as possible if you're one to be changing what skills you want to use on one character.

This brings us to another common issue:

#2 The Stat Grind
It sould be 100% unrealistic its a fantasy game.

Now, the argument I sometimes see here is that the class system exacerbates the issue of the "stat grind", where a player tends to be overly focused on making their character be the best possible thing ever by end-game so that they don't die in five seconds. The reasons should be obvious as to players who worry about such things, choosing the right Majors and Minors can either spell disaster or bliss.

This issue was most apparent in Oblivion, due to its terrible level scaling, among other things, and was only slightly an issue in Morrowind. However, on the assumption that level scaling is fixed (as it rightfully should be), then the only problem that persists is the issue of health. Non-warriors, or at least those players who do not bother to train endurance to max as early as possible, have a very high possibility of being gimped out of having high health due to how the health system works.

But the thing is, non-warriors by tradition don't need to have high health to cope with taking damage. Mages have multiple abilities at their disposal, including the ability to raise health to astronomical levels, to deal with damage and stealth characters generally are not supposed to even get hit, having put the time that could have been spent on being able to absorb damage on avoiding even being hit altogether. And melee characters obviously deal with damage by just absorbing it. And even disregarding that, those players that still want to have high health for their character (even though they may be some scrawny mage or thief or whatever) can still just train an endurance skill (or skills) up early alongside their other skills. And if you decide not to do so (and on the assumption that you knew better. Newer players should naturally fall into this issue once or twice) then thats your own fault. You should have other methods of dealing with damage at this point and if you don't, too bad, because you probably tried creating a character that shouldn't even be fighting anyway.

Now, Skyrim's answer to this issue is by allowing you to just raise health up directly regardless of what skills you train. And not only is this massively unrealistic but its also removes a fairly core gameplay mechanic for no good reason at all other than to appease the great mass of players who all yelled "HEY BETH OBLIVION svck SFIX IT ASDRHA;ESRHAESIRASDRIAESNF;ASDIHF1". Problem is, they fixed the wrong thing. In Morrowind, I hardly ever worried about grinding out my health stat except when I was taking on monsters which were naturally out of my powers to defeat anyway. Even on higher difficulties I only worried about it ever so slightly and even then I wasn't obsesssing over it. I felt no need to max Endurance by level 10 or some such nonsense. But in Oblivion, I most certainly had to because by level 20 monsters were going to start hitting harder than I could to them, and if I didn't have Endurance already maxed 10 levels ago I was pretty much screwed. Even on characters which I reasoned didn't really need health to such a great degree had to worry about it, which is sad, as I shouldn't have to worry about maxing Heavy Armor with my Thief.

The problem here was level scaling and a great lack of other methods of dealing with damage. Not the health system.

But those are the two issues I thought I'd give my 2 cents on.

And somehow I doubt you'll be able to get Two Handers up any quicker just because you're a higher level. If anything it should go slower unless you just sit in the forest and kill boars or something. Up against enemies more comparable with your level and your strengths you'll have a harder time getting it up despite the fact that your a higher level because where you gain from having a high level you lose from not being able to put out that much damage.

You can't just dismiss Guardian Stones and the faster 1-50 style gameplay and then say "no matter what all skills take the same amount of time to level up". Guardian Stones do matter as they are part of the gameplay and they give a 30% EXP bonus, which means you'll level those skills a third faster than normal. And Todd said in one of the earliest interviews that part of the reason they went with a 1-50 approach was because levellling up and selecting perks is fun so they want you to get a decent start of customizing your character early on.

I can say that "no matter what" Skyrim will have faster levelling. You cannot say that "no matter what" Skyrim will level at the same speed as the older ES games, because my position is supported by the evidence and yours is about specifically omitting it

Yes, because you start at level 1.

Freedom in roleplay can only go so far before it starts impeding gameplay. The game has to start somehow, and no matter how Bethesda could choose to do it, it would impede on someone's roleplay. Unless you mod, you will start in a prison at level 1. There's no avoiding that.

In Dungeons & Dragons there are more classes than you can shake a pointy stick at and in each of their descriptions there is a little part on what constitutes a Level 1 character. Level 1 characters are characters with class levels and they generally have been at their selected class for some time. For example an average age for a level 1 fighter is around 25. A wizard might be closer to his thirties, however, due to the years of arcane study required. The reason I personally complain about the whole "no class" thing is because I actually have an understanding of what it takes to be a certain class. I dislike the idea of some poindexter fresh out of the clink being able to master the fine art of demonic summoning after two weeks of wandering about and flashing gang-signs. I don't care just how touched by the stars he is, he is going to loose his soul in some horrifying way.

I also vaguely remember someone saying something to the effect that if your a Heavy Armor wearing, battle axe swinging, red meat eating fighter you might cast a spell on occasion or try to move by some bandits without your armor squeaking. Not to put too fine a point on it but... NO! YOU ARE PLAYING YOUR CLASS WRONG! A fighter does not sneak or cast spells because it's nigh impossible to move quietly in 200+lbs of steel plate and he is far too focused on the 101 ways he knows to behead a man with a sword to remember the proper hand gestures to spew fire from his rectum. (do not ask.)