And how do we know that just because there are no formal classes, there won't be ways to customize our initial build? As far as I know there may be something similar to Fallout's tag skills or a pool of distributable points we can use when creating our character to account for past experiences. Even if not, it doesn't matter much to me. I tend to reverse engineer the story for the character I create rather than trying to engineer the character to fit the story.

Yes but proper balance also makes becoming more powerful an absolute. By making that so detrimental you will feel as if you are never progressing is even more of a let down than becoming overpowerful. Again something like that becomes restrictive in my sense. I would much rather have all assets available and choose what and what not to use. Thats the best part of TES and not many other developers do it. Let the folks who have no self control or discipline moan and groan. I'll take the freedom of choice any day of the week.

So what is your Key ideal for creating a backstory? Is it something akin to bioware games like mass effect? I have found those choices paltry much the same as the company has become. So right now you have the creation kit running. What are your ideas on integrating a "backstory" system?

Personally I have always felt that opening up the journal and making flexible would be more than sufficient and more rewarding while not costing developement time.

What if I don't want to be someone who just got arrested?



1. Class UI. Allow the player to choose 7 skills that form his initial class, with 7 skill levels that can be placed into these 7 skills. Either one at a time (for a 7 boosted skills) or all into one skill (for one boosted skill) From this point, the player can then define his class name, description, and even the picture. After the beginning of the game is over with, the player can then choose to change his class name, description, picture, and skills. Skills will no longer gain any extra boosts and the only purpose of changing them out will be to have a specific set of skills that you use the most (or are training) at the top of the skill list in one nice package.

2. Dialogue that can elude to certain past events in the character's life, but without actually approaching any specifics and with the possibility of the character denying these things outright.

3. A journal that can be written in.

4. If said class system above is implemented, we can have a Morrowind-esque question system asked by someone during the game that can give us a set of skills to boost in the beginning based on how the player wants to roleplay their character, which can help establish your characters personality. But the player should still have absolute control over what is what before the end.

Then you fit right in with almost everyone else who just got arrested?

@ Morchai Thats grossly missing the point, and you should feel bad.

As someone who has played TES since Daggerfall, I rarely if ever used one of the pre set classes. I don't see the problem with starting out as a clean slate, or having some skills better trained than others right from the start. I also don't understand the problem with us all starting out with exactly the same stats or skills, because this is a single player game and that doesn't matter. As for what your character's story is, who is going to read it? Again, this is a single player game.

I've read in other threads a concern about leveling and the speed in which it happens. Why? This is a single player game. There is no one you are competing against. There is no monthly subscription, forcing you to try to "finish" the game in any time frame.

One poster here in this thread brought up the concern that certain skill choices (builds) could be unbalanced. In a single player game, there are no balance issues.

Just sit back and enjoy the game. If you find it is too easy, wipe your toon and reroll a different one. If it is too hard, train your toon in some different skills or wipe and restart.

There's a reason they call these games ROLE-PLAYING you know. And being a single player game, the story of character is obviously supposed to be kept to yourself unless you want to share it with other people.

One thing that I was thinking about is that just because there are no "classes" does not mean that certain skills won't be higher than others if you are a specific race. As an example if you are a Nord your One-handed, Block, Smithing, Heavy Armor, and Two-handed will be higher than other skills. Also if you are a Bosmer your Archery, Sneak, Alteration, Alchemy, and Light Armor will be higher than your other skills. I don't how people think that just because classes are gone means that all skills start out at the same level. As in all the previous Elder Scrolls depending on what race you are some skills are going to be higher than others.

No it doesn't . . . we have just come to expect that from RPGs. There are other ways to progress (other rewards) besides just getting more and more skilled at everything. Every athlete who has ever competed for years at the same sport reaches a point in their career where they are at the pinnacle of their abilities, but that does not mean that they suddenly find that sport detrimental.

I do understand what you are saying . . . I just don't have that mindset where I feel that my game is only fun while my character is progressing.

Plus this issue can be fixed for most just by slowing down the leveling speed to a more realistic pace, where you will continue to improve for longer, since your skills will be increasing at a slower pace. This is one reason why I'm so concerned with Skyrim's fast leveling rate, which is supposed to be much faster than Fallout 3's leveling speed . . . because I made a mod that slowed that down to 1/5th of its default pace (and mods that slowed down FO3's leveling speed were popular . . . because many gamers felt it was way too fast).

I am hoping that I can make my own story like in New Vegas... instead of having an on-rails main quest with no flexibility. I doubt that will happen because almost every quest in Oblivion was like that.

Why is having a system where just using skills counts as what I am majoring in not the same thing? Other than an obsessive need to classify skills instead of just using them. The new system will also allow me to make "jack-of-all-trades" characters or ones that have a couple specialized skills and a lot of mediocre ones if that fits the character I want to build. My last Oblivion character had 3 skills maxed out and the rest at around 20-35. The new system will allow for greater flexibility in how you can define a class. I really do not understand the fixation on picking some arbitrary skills instead of just using the skills and progressing with them how I see fit.



Like I said. Why does my pure mage have to fit into your stereotype of how a mage should progress. In Oblivion if I wanted a mage that is naturally hardy I HAVE to use skills that allow for an increased endurance multiplier. With the new system I can just make my mage a bit sturdier and if I happen to feel the defensive skills fit the role I can build on them as well. I think there is too much emphasis on 3 character archetypes when there is really no separation between their available tools. I am glad that i will be able to just make the character how I want instead of needing to fulfill some sort of stereotype.


The short of what I want to say is that just because a character has every tool available to develop from the start does not mean the character will use those tools. That is why the OP states they want classes, to choose the skills used instead of just using the skills you choose. The whole debate comes down to wanting to place boundaries and labels on things instead of just playing the character how you want. Playing however you want does not mean using every skill in the game just because it is there. The skills should have their own benefits and drawbacks instead of trying to tack on bonuses and penalties outside of the skills when it comes to 'classes'.

I would not mind choosing some type of traits upon character creation. Sort of how Fallout does it where you receive a bonus as well as a counterbalancing penalty. Although, the effects should not include increasing or decreasing starting skill levels.

Which still means you start out a bland, featureless blank slate - just that you are a bland, featureless, Nord blank slate. What if my backstory is that I was a Nord mage? I am still the stereotypical Nord one-handed, block, smithing, heavy armor experienced meathead. What a stereotypical character generation. Now I'm REALLY not being who I want to be, since all I'm being is... the racial stereotype.

* BE WHO YOU WANT TO BE! START AS AN AFRICAN AMERICAN AND LOVE FRIED CHICKEN AND FRUIT PUNCH! START AS AN ASIAN AND BE REALLY SMART! ETC ETC *

Is that anyone's idea of an RPG?

What? You may want to rephrase that. But anyways the difference is that the class system I advocate is purely a UI component and has little to no gameplay effects, beyond may be a small initial boost, while giving a massive amount of role playing options for the player that doesn't just rely on the imagination.



Again, you miss where I said: "Classes should be DYNAMIC and able to be changed ON THE FLY". I'm not saying you have to pick 7 skills and you're stuck with them defining your class. If you decide you want to use one handers instead of two handers, then you toggle off the major skill button on two handers and put it on one handers. Simple as that.

Seems to me that some people are just so hell bent on believing that classes are this restrictive thing that ruins freedom when they're not (Especially the class system I'm arguing for) that they don't bother to understand what is very, VERY simple.

Barring your racism, yes. Try actually playing a classless RPG sometime.

And having all skills count toward leveling is any different? If you start using 2-handers you will level using them. Why even bother picking majors in your system if they do not mean anything and you just switch them up anyway?

Really? For every post talking about how restrictive classes were in TES, there are at least just as many complaining of maxing the dreaded attributes and becoming a master of all trades. I'm very confused how starting builds restricted players. Do you have an example from your own games?

The new system will likely be as restricting and confusing to players who have been confused by TES up until now.

Convenience of having them be clustered together at the top of the list, roleplaying, ???, roleplaying, profit, etc.



Exactly. And teh reason classes could be restrictive was because it was only ever class skills that made you level up. Remove that problem and OMG classes are not restrictive at all, and even with it, they still aren't this gamebreaking BE THIS OR ELSE restriction that people constantly like to bandwagon.

I see. So role-playing only exists if you are ticking off a checklist of skills that the game says a class should use. I understand it now. This thread has nothing to do with playing the game and everything to do with wanting the game to tell you that you are role-playing. Just because there is no "scorecard" of attributes and "checklist" of skills does not equate to removal of RPG mechanics and capacity for role-playing. The only way the people complaining will understand this is by actually using the system.*

*disclaimer: Bethesda has not had a track record of implementing things thoroughly or even competently so your mileage may vary.

I for one will not miss classes.

No tag skills aren't classes
Tag skills if used like FO 1 & 2 are a handful of skills that your character is talented in and raises quickly
A class is a predefined archetype like warrior or mage with the result that instead of creating our own identity for the character we are just choosing between stereotypes

Oh good lord. Are you even trying to seriously comprehend whats being said here or what? Here, I'll say it in caps:

WE WANT IN-GAME REFLECTIONS OF WHAT WE ARE ROLEPLAYING. WE DO NOT ALL WANT TO JUST LEAVE EVERYTHING TO THE [censored] IMAGINATION. IF I OR ANYONE ELSE WANTED TO DO THAT WE WOULDN'T NEED GAMES.

Say I check off these skills at the beginning:

One-Handed Weaps.
Smithing
Heavy Armor
Block
Speechcraft
Destruction
Restoration

And I call myself a Paladin. Somewhere down the line, I find that I really like using magic, so I decide to drop all the melee stuff as majors and I put up instead a bunch of magical skill. I get all the skills I'm going to use at the top of the list for the convenience of accessing them quicker if I want to check my experience with each. Then I spend a couple minutes changing class and description (because I WANT to, not because otherwise I'm suddenly inable to be a mage. I can choose to ignore my class name and description altogether and get back to gaming) and then proceed to go about my business being a mage. I didn't need to change anything. I could have just stopped training any of my melee skills and just stuck with magic. But then I'd be going through a whole list of skills to find the skills I'm actually putting to use (or tracking the experience in. my class system also works as way to keep track of several skills at once without having to go through the whole list) and I'd have some seemingly mismatched class options that really don't affect anything gameplay wise, but if I were roleplaying, would serve as a great reflection of what I'm playing as that enhances me actually playing that sort of character.

Anyone can just play as Paladin. But I think its that much more special when you can literally pull up the class menu and have it say you're a Paladin. It isn't necessary, but it damn sure is nice to have when I'm roleplaying. One less thing I have to leave up to the imagination.

Understand now?



Yeah, if you're stupid enough to stay within those archetypes even though you apparently don't want to. How hard is it to understand that just because the class sheet lists you as a warrior doesn't mean you have to use a warrior's skills?

I think perhaps I'll wait until I've played it for a while before I start deciding what's wrong with it.
No game will ever be just right for everyone - Everything is a tradeoff.

As long as I don't have to wear that stupid helmet with the horns I'll be happy.

Sounds like Bethesda is listening to the console players and stupid 12 year old PC players.

Seriously I don't know anyone my age that complains about taking extra time to do things. Well I take that back, but the majority of people that have been playing TES from Arena, Daggerfall, or Morrowind don't complain about the things that these recent Oblivion players complain about.

I feel the need to never have kids, mostly because I don't want them growing up being they annoying kiddies that I despise so much right now. Well for other things to, but you get my point. This was a joke btw.

It seems that Bethesda and multiple other gaming companies are trying to make these games simplified to the point where a 12 year old can beat it on the hardest difficulty setting. It's not about appeasing the community, it's about appeasing the younger kids and adolescents that play the games. This is what it seems like to me anyway.

I have a nine year old daughter. I taught her Morrowind's system just fine and she plays it more than I do now. And shes already said that if we could get Daggerfall to work right on one of our comps she'd like to try that too. So not all kids are going to crap. Just the parents really.

And yes, the same sort of lazy developing is infecting virtually all media. Not so much more about doing it for the art but more for the quick money. I cite the terrible (US) economy as one of the causes. Because afterall, with less money being able to be thrown around and lost, less people are willing to put their hearts into something that may or may not get a return.