Yes it was:
Indeed, if the history of the Nords is the history of humans on Tamriel, then Cyrodiil is the throne from which they will decide their destiny. It is the largest region of the continent, and most is endless jungle. Its center, the grassland of the Nibenay Valley, is enclosed by an equatorial rain forest and broken up by rivers. As one travels south along these rivers, the more subtropical it becomes, until finally the land gives way to the swamps of Argonia and the placid waters of the Topal Bay. The elevation rises gradually to the west and sharply to the north. Between its western coast and its central valley there are all manner of deciduous forest and mangroves, becoming sparser towards the ocean. The western coast is a wet-dry area, and from Rihad border to Anvil to the northernmost Valenwood villages forest fires are common in summer. There are a few major roads to the west, river paths to the north, and even a canopy tunnel to the Velothi Mountains, but most of Cyrodiil is a river-based society surrounded by jungle.

About "Talos did it": Yet the warp in the west actually went into detail. We know why it happened, and people all experienced it. There were many accounts, descriptions, and consequences. No one ever described "Talos did it". No one experienced it. As far as anyone is concerned it never even happened. Its a cop out and that much is obvious. One paragraph does not an explanation make.


Easy answer: Oblivion changes were boring. I found myself exploring a Lord of the Rings/Disney landscape, except without the danger or the good animation.

Morrowind added things, but Oblivion took an entire freaking province, turned it from a jungle into a generic fantasy setting, and gave the explanation that "a wizard did it." No, I'm not calling Talos a wizard, that's an expression for when the author changes something in a story with absolutely no explanation and says it just happened because of magic. It's a cop-out and just embarrassing.



We never saw any part of Cyrodiil outside of a small bit of the Imperial City in any game before Oblivion. Cyrodiil was a mystery, and the fantastic lore about jungles and the amazing Imperial City had people desperately wanting to see it. Then Oblivion came along, threw away all of the established lore about the setting and expected us to be fine with it.

Morrowind's explanation of Daggerfall's ending is logically contingent upon the circumstances of Daggerfall's ending. Possibly even logically necessary. Giant mythopoeic stompyrobot, multiple different paths said stompyrobot might engage in. Stompyrobot breaks time (which collaborates with and follows other patterns of apotheosis and time breaking), and all paths are fulfilled at once. It makes sense, both with what Daggerfall left us with and with what Morrowind added.

Whereas Talos's divine retcon comes literally out of nowhere. There is no logical contingency. There is by no means logical necessity. It just happens. Heck, even the CHIM excuse doesn't make sense with the concept of CHIM. If you have CHIM, then your outlook on the world and yourself and everyone else is so fundamentally altered that thinking of using your newfound awareness to change something so trivial in comparison makes no real sense.That includes what Morrowind left us with and what Oblivion added.

I'm not opposed to alternatives and I'm not opposed to constructive criticism either, but still, why aren't Arena or Daggerfall being criticized? Why is it only Oblivion? That is my only point. Oblivion is always criticized around here, but nothing else is. Are Oblivion's many flaws its flaws alone? The fast-travel issue is just a very minor debate that people will always have varying opinions about, and I'm fine with that, but why is Oblivion the only game criticized around here? Why is it called non-canon? Oblivion is not the first game to do certain things, things that are only criticized when Oblivion is mentioned.

Do you really need me to answer that question for you? Oblivion is the latest game in the series, therefore it will be focused on the most in people's criticisms. Morrowind also had criticisms made about it, but it would be rather silly for somebody to come on the forums in 2010 and start a topic ranting about Morrowind's bad animations, for example. When TESV comes out, people will start leaving Oblivion alone and it wont be long until you'll never see another Morrowind vs. Oblivion topic again.

It's because these things had been improved once, but when Oblivion came out, bethesda kind of reverted back to old concepts.

That right there is the best summary answer there is as to why Oblivion gets so much flak.


The changes that the series underwent prior to Oblivion were done in a skillful fashion. They were either internally consistent with the world, or they provided trade-offs that were widely held as acceptable trade-offs, or the concepts and mechanics that they presented were interesting and compelling enough (or combined with interesting and compelling things) to inspire us to forget or not care about the change.

That is successful art. And to those jaded by previous changes in the series, the threshold of skillful implementation for what inspires us to forget or not care about change rises with each attempt. Oblivion fell short of that threshold in the view of a lot of people. Those that find Oblivion meets or exceeds their threshold are either more tolerant to such changes by nature, or they are just not as jaded as others.

4 years after its release, people are repeating the same things they have been repeating for 4 years? I can imagine the Oblivion/TES V comparisons now. "TES V is dumbed down. Bring back true role-playing, like we had in Oblivion. That game isn't all about graphics and the skills actually matter. There were so many more options for fast-travel. These casual TES V players are ruining the series."

So, is that the answer for the OP? Oblivion is criticized so much because it is the latest game in the series? That was a simple answer.

Aside from guild conflicts, Morrowind actually had none of those things. The main quest was entirely linear outside from a backdoor for it if you killed some important characters and the option to skip part of it if you had a high enough level and reputation. That part was somewhat less linear than the other parts as well as you could choose which order you did the quests for that portion in, but in the end, the main quest followed one storyline. And what few options you ever did get in quests had no major lasting concequences, the only places where real concequences came up were typically if you joined one of the factions that conflicts with another (For example, if you joined a great house, you could not join the other two.)

Of course, that does not speak for Daggerfall or Arena, I simply felt the need to point this out, as it seems very often when judging a sequel, players will look at older games in the series with a perspective tainted by nostalgia, or some other feeling that can cause bias in their opinions, and it tends to make them judge these games differently, by extension, it will also impact their judgement of their sequels.

But ultimately, it seems people like to complain, it doesn't make sense if you think about it, as you'd think that they'd live much more pleasant lives if they looked for the best in all things, but nonetheless, if there are any faults to be found in something, many seem to have a tendency to latch on to these, and as much as I like Oblivion, and Morrowind, and Daggerfall (I can't speak for Arena as I haven't played it.) and even Fallout 3, I can't deny that there are faults in these, all of the Elder Scrolls games ever made, like all games ever made, or indeed, all things that have ever been created by humans, are imperfect, I can recognize this while still enjoying the game. It also must be taken into account that many Elder Scrolls fans were rather hyped about Oblivion, and why shouldn't they be? They were getting a sequel to a series they loved, and it's not like Bethesda didn't promise a lot to begin with, and while hype is good for SELLING a game, as I'm sure many here can attest, it can also leave players disappointed if it turns out that the game that was hyped was not everything they made it out to be, even if they would have enjoyed the exact same game if they had never heard about it before reading a positive review and decided to give it a try. Whether Bethesda delivered all that was promised with Oblivion or not, there's no way they could have delivered all that some fans let themselves expect, taking this into account, it should be no surprise that there were some who criticized it.

But regardless of one's thoughts of Oblivion, those who refuse to take it into account in the lore forum are either trolls, or just being foolish. Because what is and isn't canon is determined by the creators, not the fans, so unless Bethesda declares anything we learned in Oblivion non-canon, regardless of how well it fits with any revelations from previous games, it is correct, and if the Elder Scrolls V is released and treats Oblivion as canon, I can laugh at the foolishness of all who ever refused to treat it as such.



It's probably because it's the newest game in the series, when the Elder Scrolls V is released, I'm sure it will be criticized as well, it will probably be criticized so much that you'd think Bethesda just commited some sort of horrifying atrocity, as opposed to just making a game that didn't offer everything everyone ever asked of it.



The main problem I see with that explanation is not so much that it's implausible as that Oblivion's landscape is rather boring, if Bethesda is going to change the lore, they can change it all they want, as long as the change is a good one, I just don't like that Cyrodiil became Generic Fantasy Land, I'd willingly accept that handwave if Bethesda made Cyrodiil MORE interesting than it was described as, even without the explanation, I'd accept it just because I like the way they made it, the problem is that Bethesda made what I, and some others here as well, see as a change for the worse in that area. If Bethesda wants to change something in the Elder Scrolls, I actually won't go reaching for the torch and pitchfork, but if they can't keep their own world internally consistent, I'd ask that they at least change it for the better, and if they really MUST make a part of the setting boring, they should come up with a somewhat better explanation than "a wizard did it". You see, in fiction, the likelihood that fans will accept something that seems implausible depends a lot on how well it works out in it, things like the Rule of Cool, Rule of Fun, Rule of Drama and so on most likely run on this idea.

Though to be honest, the Warp in the West was kind of a silly hand-wave too, but the only alternative would probably have been to declare only one ending of Daggerfall canon, and just ignore the others, which might anger those who chose other endings, and PREFERED those endings.



As much as I agree with that cause for complaining, it fails to cover all the complaints pointed at Oblivion. While some complaints are pretty reasonable, some of them make me wonder if maybe these people are taking their games a little too seriously.

I personally was disappointed with Oblivion but looking back on it now it doesn't surprise me with how the game turned out.

Watch this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2187632004186112119&ei=ZVqhS_vPFJmmrAOj_dmSDA&q=morrowind+review&hl=en&client=firefox-a#


Notice the criticisms of Morrowind.
1. Unresponsive Combat
2. Unbalanced skills
3. Quantity over Quality
4. Dice roll-lockpicking and speechcraft
5. Wall of Text
6. Hard to find locations (not in video)


Bethesda seemed to take this to heart and really fixed many of the major concerns with MW in Oblivion. The problem was that balanced skills generally meant less skills with less options. Better combat meant making the game almost a fighting game. By making quality over quantity the world and quests seemed tiny by comparison. The mini games were easily exploitable and the dialogue just wasn't enough, and the quest compass made your anolysis of the question "what do I need to do next" purposeless.

I would have gone into detail, but I had some things I needed to do.

So let me go into detail now:
Complaints about a forested Cyrodiil are more like a soapbox for the bigger underlying complaint that Oblivion had next to no culture. It had no political landscape, despite being in the center of an empire without an emperor. Religion is barely explored despite being under invasion by what is basically the most hellish daedric prince of Oblivion. I have no idea what the people of Cyrodiil act like, believe in, and more.

In Morrowind, the Great Houses ruled most of the daily life. Their influence was seen all over. Religion was literally a living and breathing thing. The effects of the Temple and (partly) the Cult could be seen in the actions of the people, like those who were killed as they were thought to be witches or necromancers. Every culture had a way of life that could be seen readily. The Dunmer in general were a hardy people, who upheld honor, but also were not afraid to use underhanded methods. Every Great House had the player do backstabs and cheap tricks to further the gains of the higher ups. Telvanni were absolutely insane and isolated. The Redoran were the last of a failing house, beset upon all sides by dishonor and greed. Dagoth Ur, the devil, the Sharmat, affected the lives of every person on the island with his corprus and blight. The entire land was hostile to outlanders, and it was obvious the people were as well.

What I mean to say is that everything the Pocket Guide mentions about Morrowind is present or mentioned in the games. What happened with Cyrodiil? What happened to the odd Nibonese as described?:
The Colovians today still possess much of the frontier spirit of their ancestors. They are uncomplicated, self-sufficient, hearty, and extremely loyal to one another. Whenever the East would tremble under the weakness of a leader, the Colovians would withdraw unto themselves, always believing they were keeping the national spirit safe until the storm passed. They realize that the Nibenay Valley is the heart of the Empire and the cultural center of its civilization, but it is a fragile center that only can be held together by the strength of character of its Emperor. When he falters, so do the Colovians. Yet when he is mighty, like Tiber Septim, they are his legions. Today, West Cyrodiils make up the majority of the soldiers in the Ruby Ranks. The Colovian nobility, all officers of the Imperial Legions or its West Navy, do not allow themselves the great expenditure of courtly life as is seen in the capital city. They prefer immaculate uniforms and stark standards hanging from the ceiling of their austere cliff-fortresses; to this day, they become a little perplexed when they must visit the grandly decorated assault of color that is the Emperor's Palace.

or the hardy and up strong Colovians?:
By contrast, the Eastern people of Cyrodiil relish in garish costumes, bizarre tapestries, tattoos, brandings, and elaborate ceremony. Closer to the wellspring of civilization, they are more given to philosophy and the evolution of ancient traditions. The Nibenese find the numinous in everything around them, and their different cults are too numerous to mention (the most famous are the Cult of the Ancestor-Moth, the Cult of Heroes, the Cult of Tiber Septim, and the Cult of Emperor Zero). To the Colovians, the ancestor worship and esoteric customs of the East can often be bizarre. Akaviri dragon-motifs are found in all quarters, from the high minaret bridges of the Imperial City to the paper hako skiffs that villagers use to wing their dead down the rivers. Thousands of workers ply the rice fields after the floodings, or clear the foliage of the surrounding jungle in the alternate seasons. Above them are the merchant-nobility, the temple priests and cult leaders, and the age-old aristocracy of the battlemages. The Emperor watches over them all from the towers of the Imperial City, as dragons circle overhead.

Their differences were said to be so large it was obvious which region a person was from. What about the melting pot Cyrodiil was supposed to be? Where are the multiple religions? Different methods of dress?

What happened to Cyrodiil?

I liked Oblivion's combat much better than Morrowinds, (like how your skill affected your damage, not your ability to hit). But I agree with most of the other posters that Morrowind's story was just better and had a lot more depth. I also liked how people in Oblivion talked (although I think it would be much better if they had more voice actors).

I saw a mudcrab the other day. Dreadful things!

People in Cyrodiil seem overly obsessed with mudcrabs.

Stop talking!


(Yes, something that I'll admit definitely was a flaw.)

Cheers! That saves me some work.



What often goes wrong in these discussions that people come up with examples of this whole experience which is then taken to be the full extend of the experience, which is then easily marginalized as just being one thing. Which is nice if you want to win an argument on the internet but not good for much else. So instead of showing examples or the full extend and detail that went into the world, I'm going to suggest playing an entirely different game.

Have you, or anybody here played Planescape: Torment? If you haven't you should. It has crappy combat, unbalanced skills, dice roll-everything, walls of text and next to no help. Yet it was so detailed, and such an immersion atmosphere that none of that mattered. Only books tend to go there. If you can play it and you can see why despite all the mechanical faults people like it, then you know why Morrowind was so great and what Oblivion lacks.




Cheers, again allot of work saved.

I'd like to mention though that the Warp in the West is much better integrated into the Lore than Tibers magical hand weave. Perhaps not what happened with the endings but everything else, the origin and purpose of the Brass God, the effects of the Brass Gods presence on Mundus. It's all been reused to develop the myths and the story of Morrowind.

At any other time, Tibers magical hand weave could have been integrated in much the same way. Imagine a country full of people divinely forced into conformity and heterogeneity while the sparks and resistance of their actual personalities boil under the surface. People talk about rebellion only to forget it a few seconds later.

I reckon that what is missing from Cyrodiil is, mostly, imagination.



Indeed and I don't think you'll find many people who'll argue that Oblivions game mechanics aren't an improvement. However -let's put this colourfully- a comfortable seat in a theatre isn't as important as a good movie to watch.

edit: Okay I did find some people who prefer dice rolls for simulation. Not my preferred choice though.

I agree completely, but I must also add something. While the butchery of the people was phenomenally addressed by you, my own personal beef was what became of the land itself:

Indeed, if the history of the Nords is the history of humans on Tamriel, then Cyrodiil is the throne from which they will decide their destiny. It is the largest region of the continent, and most is endless jungle. Its center, the grassland of the Nibenay Valley, is enclosed by an equatorial rain forest and broken up by rivers. As one travels south along these rivers, the more subtropical it becomes, until finally the land gives way to the swamps of Argonia and the placid waters of the Topal Bay. The elevation rises gradually to the west and sharply to the north. Between its western coast and its central valley there are all manner of deciduous forest and mangroves, becoming sparser towards the ocean. The western coast is a wet-dry area, and from Rihad border to Anvil to the northernmost Valenwood villages forest fires are common in summer. There are a few major roads to the west, river paths to the north, and even a canopy tunnel to the Velothi Mountains, but most of Cyrodiil is a river-based society surrounded by jungle.

That is the first paragraph of the Pocket Guide alone. Even worse than the landscape of the whole Province was what heppend to merely the Imperial City (although thanks to the wheel-and-spoke symbolism it is somewhat forgivable:

Refayj's famous declaration, "There is but one city in the Imperial Province,--" may strike the citizens of the Colovian west as mildly insulting, until perhaps they hear the rest of the remark, which continues, "--but one city in Tamriel, but one city in the World; that, my brothers, is the city of the Cyrodiils." From the shore it is hard to tell what is city and what is Palace, for it all rises from the islands of the lake towards the sky in a stretch of gold. Whole neighborhoods rest on the jeweled bridges that connect the islands together. Gondolas and river-ships sail along the watery avenues of its flooded lower dwellings. Moth-priests walk by in a cloud of ancestors; House Guards hold exceptionally long daikatanas crossed at intersections, adorned with ribbons and dragon-flags; and the newly arrived Western legionnaires sweat in the humid air. The river mouth is tainted red from the tinmi soil of the shore, and river dragons rust their hides in its waters. Across the lake the Imperial City continues, merging into the villages of the southern red river and ruins left from the Interregnum.

The Emperor's Palace is a crown of sun rays, surrounded by his magical gardens. One garden path is known as Green Emperor Road-here, topiaries of the heads of past Emperors have been shaped by sorcery and can speak. When one must advise Tiber Septim, birds are drawn to the hedgery head, using their songs as its voice and moving its branches for the needed expressions.

Seriously. Just http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/cyrodiil.shtml You may well begin to weep for what could have been

I found that to be pretty funny.

(At least NPCs in Oblivion don't walk like they have sticks up their bottoms.)

Those are staves, and they an an unfortunate side effect of the Integrated Guard Reaction System. The enchanted staves are the triggers to warn the guards of a crime...people just didn't have anywhere else to put them.


Yes, I would have address that, but others had already mentioned it, and as I mentioned in my post, many people simply use the land-change as a soap box to complain, when the REAL complaint is the lack of diversity and imagination within Cyrodiil. People are so much angry about the land (although some are, such as yourself) as they are about the way the world was treated in general. The jungle to forest transformation just so happens to be the most obvious and easiest to point out example.

The jungle got taken care of. Also in the novel thread, I posted a real jungle link that looked like normal trees (which can be seen in Oblivion) and no member at Bethesda forum responded to me about it. So I am to believe there is a jungle in Oblivion. Just like the jungle from the link I gave in the thread.

So since nobody gave effort to respond to me on that, I decline now an answer and don't care.

The PGE states that they are mangrove swamps, which are usually by thick jungles that one may see in the Amazon, parts of central America, or in south east Asia.

And its not about what they "took care of." It doesn't matter how well they explain away what happened. It simply matters that it wasn't fun or interesting. I don't care even if they had an extremely well thought out group of books and descriptions. The game world was as boring as watching paint dry. People would have been more forgiving of the change in scenery if the new scenery was actually interesting, especially compared to the inspired descriptions of the jungle, the swamps, the rice patties, and all the biting insects and generally hot and humid climate. I really wasn't thrilled to walk across western Europe.

Oblivion world is awesome, I see nothing wrong with it. I guess that is your opinion. When saying "people", did you get a head count who hates the land?

You can include me in that count. I hate what Cyrodiil bacame. I find it extremely tiresome.

I understand that it's difficult to recreate jungle, but in most places they didn't even try. Down towards Leyawiin we get a few swamps and thicker foliage which is better. I like the Jerral and Valus mountain ranges too, but Colovia and the Niben basin are very boring.

Hey, have you played Planescape yet? What did you think of it?



+1

Applying the usual corrections that we're talking about dislike rather then hate. And that this is about the execution of the setting of the game rather then just the land or the game.

No, haven't played it. http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/image/187975.html?gs=6 From what I see, looks like I will play it, never heard of it though. Anything I should know?



Yeah, you are right about using hate. I should have said dislike. My apologies all.