Yes, I know it is missing Daggerfall's whole reputation system and RPG feel in many ways. I have noticed that Daggerfall offers a very strong role-playing backbone, but the game itself feels like an empty shell. That is where hand-crafted games fill in the shell. I want to see Daggerfall's role-playing shell filled with a hand-crafted world. That has not yet been achieved. However, in Oblivion, I still see Daggerfall's level-scaling, similar terrain, and an overall feel.

Morrowind is an alien world. Oblivion feels like Daggerfall. There is one quest in Oblivion That gave me small taste of what Oblivion could be like inside Daggerfall's shell, but overall, Oblivion still feels like Daggerfall to me, except Oblivion has some interesting things to do. I don't see where this huge "mainstreaming" process took place. Daggerfall was very easy for me to access. The beginning is similar, the feel of the game is similar, and much of Daggerfall seems to be the blueprint for Oblivion.

I refuse to accept that Daggerfall and Morrowind are role-playing gold while Oblivion is casual trash, no matter how much someone tries to "prove" it to me. By the way, where does Arena fit into this? Few people ever mention Arena around here. Is it not a game worth mentioning? I feel as if Arena is the only actually difficult-to-access Elder Scrolls game. I don't see how it is much harder to play Daggerfall or Morrowind than it is to play Oblivion. I see Oblivion's level-scaling, less equipment slots, and less skills as major problems, but I don't see this lack of role-playing. I spend all of my time role-playing, and I think it provides all the potential needed for role-playing. Yet, as always, there is an Oblivion bashing festival going on.

Even if Morrowind was criticized when it was released, it couldn't have been this severe. It's been four years and there is still all this "casual" crap going around the forums. Why so much division among Elder Scrolls fans? It's almost as bad as the original Fallouts vs. Fallout 3 stuff. Oblivion isn't canon? Oblivion isn't an RPG? Oblivion fans are casual action junkies? People can't enjoy all TES games?

Doesn't Bioware focus only on certain stories for certain, already created characters? Also, I wasn't trying to separate Oblivion from other Elder Scrolls games, I was trying to show how it is an RPG. By have my character do whatever I want, I was referring to the open world and freedom of Elder Scrolls games. How can I do whatever I want if I'm not given a free, open world? Oblivion was unique(to me) when I found it. I found something special in it, Bethesda's talent. Therefore, I love Oblivion the most of all TES games since it is my first Elder Scrolls game, but that seems to be the case with most Elder Scrolls fans. Most Elder Scrolls fans seem to love their first Elder Scrolls game the most. However, I do not hate other Elder Scrolls games. The only thing that results in my choice of my favorite Elder Scrolls game is that Oblivion is my first Elder Scrolls game.

I can't notice a huge schism between Morrowind and Oblivion, yet people claim it is there. Oblivion is only more special to me than Morrowind because it is my first Elder Scrolls game. When compared to Arena and Daggerfall, though. Morrowind and Arena just seem less empty and more interesting. As a result, I group Arena and Daggerfall together and I group Morrowind and Oblivion together. Skills in Oblivion really don't seem to be any less important than they are in Daggerfall though. The problem of level-scaling in Daggerfall is present in Oblivion, and in Daggerfall, my level 2 knight seems to be very powerful. Skills don't really seem to be too important in Daggerfall, yet people claim that is only Oblivion's problem. It is seen as mainstreaming, but it was done in Daggerfall, which is considered to be a strong role-playing game. Oblivion reminds of Daggerfall mostly because of its faults.

Most of Oblivion's main RPG element problems are present in Daggerfall, yet Daggerfall is praised while Oblivion is bashed, unless level-scaling in Daggerfall isn't actually as bad as I think it is, but from what I've experienced, it is. I've always wondered who thought level-scaling was the way to go with Oblivion, and I found out that it goes back to Daggerfall, the praised RPG. From the similarities between Oblivion and Daggerfall, the generic setting, level-scaling, and hack and slash complaints about Oblivion didn't make any sense. Arena and Daggerfall both have generic settings(far more generic than Oblivion's), Arena and Daggerfall are hack and slash(more than Oblivion, combat in Arena and Daggerfall consists of wildly swinging one's weapon around, and level-scaling is in Daggerfall(to what I believe is a worse degree than in Oblivion), but I'm not sure about Arena.

When comparing Oblivion and Morrowind to previous Elder Scrolls games, Morrowind seems to be a bit strange. After playing Daggerfall, I was convinced that it's combat is more hack and slash and less about role-playing than Oblivion's combat and that skills really don't matter in Daggerfall as much as they do in Oblivion, but Daggerfall's reputation system, complexity of its currency system, and larger variety of skills, and larger numbers of equipment slots was the price for interesting quests and locations, like in Oblivion, a price that I believe is worth the product. Morrowind is a good middle ground, but after anolyzing this, I don't see how Oblivion is a bad RPG.

Seti, no offense man but you've really got to work on formatting your posts. Make it a few paragraphs instead of a huge wall of text, you know. :bonk:

Is that better(I couldn't use the tab key to indent)?

Yes, much better. :goodjob:

No i've never played Daggerfall, i get frustrated whenever i try to download and install the game (crap internet connection and i HATE complicated dosbox routines), but i have heard that in many ways it's superior to Morrowind, which i have no reason to disbelieve. I think that you're the only person that i have read make the claim that Oblivion and Daggerfall are similar though.

I'm sorry for calling you a casual gamer, i just don't roleplay the same way others seem to. When i play these games, i see my character on screen as more my avatar than my alter ego in a sense. I play these games to perfect every part of my character and explore, gaining knowledge about the world, perfecting my quests and forcing the world world give up it's secrets. Oblivion may have been all right for people who put their own soul and imagination into a game, but in Morrowind the soul and imagination were already there, i didn't need to fill in the blanks, i just spent thousands upon thousands of hours appreciating it.

I shouldn't have lumped gamers into two categories, i kind of assumed that either you liked the adventure of TES games or you liked the depth and soul. I didn't take into account that blanks that i perceive in Oblivion could be irrelevant or even useful for a roleplayer. Ignorant of me really, considering i've been here a while.

EDIT seti, you're [censored] fifteen? I thought i was insulting a seasoned gamer. I'm not devaluing your opinions though, as you seem to be more coherent and intelligent than i am at 26. It's that i don't really play many roleplaying games, and i thought i was speaking to someone with a few under his belt.

1: randomly generated MADE it more unique. Daggerfall was more Unique than Oblivion, but Oblivion was more so than Arena.
2:As it was once explained to me, Morrowind+ is different becuae they actually startd caring about the things put i games in relation to lore.
3:Arena did have Level scaling on monsters, and Daggerfall did at a very small rate. However, you get killed by a level-scaled opponent in daggerfall often, where as in oblivion you are always fighting the ecuivolent of rats.
4: In COD:6, everyone camps because it is easy to. are you going to not camp because it is more fun, or camp because you will get more kills?


They ARE critisized for being large and empty. However, the cities of Cyrodiil (and the Landscape) were empty and small. I'm not sure which is worse.

1. Daggerfall is more unique than Oblivion? :rofl: After seeing one randomly-generated labyrinth of a dungeon in Daggerfall, I saw them all. There are no interesting areas or quests in Daggerfall, other than quests or areas related to the main questline. In Oblivion, I did actually find some interesting things while exploring, especially in the Shivering Isles(part of the game). I can think of several interesting, non-quest-related dungeons in Oblivion and Oblivion's quests were actually interesting. Even the boring dungeons in Oblivion were more interesting(and reasonable) than the randomly-generated labyrinths known as Daggerfall's dungeons. Those are also many interesting non-dungeon locations in Oblivion.
2. That I agree with. Morrowind+ had less DnD lore.
3. In Daggerfall, my character is killing every enemy(literally every enemy) at a very low level. In Oblivion, I found the early levels(especially the teen levels to be difficult. Daggerfall really isn't a difficult game. The first saber-tooth tiger I encountered in Daggerfall died in 3 swings, the first mountain lion I encountered in Oblivion killed my character very easily. I don't avoid anything in Daggerfall, but in Oblivion, I had to be a little careful at lower levels.
4. What? I don't know anything about COD. Are you referring to fast-travel being optional? I don't use fast-travel when I don't want to. If I've been somewhere before, I'm not going to walk there if I don't want to, so I use fast-travel. When I want to explore and I am not focusing on anything, then I don't use fast-travel. I love exploring in Elder Scrolls games, but there is no exploration in Daggerfall. There's nothing interesting to find and in that game, one really has to use fast-travel. I explore in Oblivion, though. I don't need to be forced to have fun. If I want to have fun, I do what I know will result in me having fun. I don't need to have my hand held while I am forced to do something when I don't want to. Don't people commonly claim Oblivion holds your hand?

Cyrodiil isn't empty. Cyrodiil is definitely a more interesting place than the entire area covered by Daggerfall. One waterfall in Cyrodiil is more interesting than all of Daggerfall's randomly-generated land area, locations, and quests(which is everything in Daggerfall not related to the main quest). In Cyrodiil, I can actually find something of interest by exploring. Many dungeons in Oblivion seem to be there just to be there, but some are interesting. There is nothing interesting in Daggerfall(except the main quest, and books). I've found interesting things in some of Oblivion's dungeons, and due to Daggerfall being randomly-generated, none of those things exist in Daggerfall.

I would like to see more of those interesting things in Oblivion's dungeons, but Oblivion was still far more interesting than Daggerfall. Name one interesting location(not related to the main quest) in Arena or Daggerfall. Only a hand-crafted Elder Scrolls games(Morrowind and Oblivion) have those places. If you honestly think Cyrodiil is as boring as the area covered by Daggerfall, then I don't think you have played Oblivion. Also, Oblivion's cities were far more unique than Daggerfall's. Even without the Shivering Isles(which is a part of this game), Oblivion is more unique and interesting than Daggerfall is. That is not an opinion. That is a fact. Aside from locations related to Daggerfall's main quest, there is not one single hand-crafted area or quest(only the blueprints for a generic "kill this" or "fetch this" quest) in Daggerfall. Vvardenfell is more interesting than Cyrodiil, but Cyrodiil is definitely more interesting than the area covered by Daggerfall.

I believe for many people there is some truth to that. None of the ES games are without flaws, and I think it takes a realist to be able to see the merits and flaws of all the games in the series without the rose-tinted perspective of nostalgia. As passionate as you seem to be about Oblivion, there are just as many people, if not more, who are even more passionate about Morrowind. And, if I'm to be honest, I think those who started with Morrowind are disappointed that Bethesda didn't simply tweak things that weren't quite perfect to make them better, but rather, basically scrapped the whole system to rebuild from the ground up, only to overcompensate. I know I am one of those people. However, I can admit that Oblivion is a good game, so long as its judged on its own merit, and not compared to others in the series.



On this, I have to disagree. I am reminded of this anytime I pick up Oblivion and try to put my lockpicking, speechcraft, combat, or magic skills to the test. One of the reasons? Minigames. Minigames are a better representation of the player's dexterity and motor skills rather than the PC character's skills. It hardly mattered that I barely knew the business end of a lockpick as a fledgling thief. With enough patience, and the right amount of finger dexterity, I could pick absolutely any lock I wanted to regardless of the lock's difficulty or my PC's skill level. I don't think I even have to mention how absurd the speechcraft minigame was, nor how it rendered speechcraft useless as a skill.

With combat, it seemed to take even more hits to kill an enemy the better I got, but maybe that's just my subjective viewpoint on the battles I was encountering later on in the game. And, with magic, I was extremely irritated that I couldn't even attempt some spells at lower levels, but once I attained a certain level, not only could I then learn the spells, but I never failed at them.

I've yet to experience any of the aforementioned things while playing Daggerfall. The first time I played, I got my ass handed to me at least a dozen times in the beginning dungeon. Spells failed, locks would not pick, blows would glance off of my opponents, etcetera, etcetera. Granted, some of that was due to figuring out the mechanics of the game as I went, but nonetheless, there were enemies in the beginning dungeon that took a measure of strategy to get through. Even when I made it out of the first dungeon and made my way to Daggerfall, well, let's just say that I learned to respect (and fear) the word, "vengeance". Gradually, my skills increased and I got a bit better, and I could get through a dungeon with a bit of confidence, though always with a healthy dose of caution. What is the point to this, you might ask? It is to give a small illistration that shows that the pc's skills really do matter in Daggerfall. At least, moreso than you are giving Daggerfall credit for.

I was being honest. Daggerfall is easy for me. That may be because of what class I play, though, or I may just be really good at making charactors. My level 2 knight has nothing to fear from dungeons. Perhaps playing a knight character has something to do with my success? My character's longblade skill is 51%, and I have an Elven longsword. Before my character first left Privateer's Hold, everything inside was dead and my character had some decent starting gear. I break locks open with my sword and in combat, I wildly swing my sword until my enemy is dead. It really isn't a challenge, just hack and slash. My character's sword kills enemies and breaks locks quite easily. Daggerfall's dungeons are creepy, though.

Perhaps. But don't try to convince me that you have confronted the ghost of Daggerfall and lived while still at level 2.

I've a confronted a ghost of Daggerfall and lived, but not I have fought some ghosts and won, just not that specific ghost. Also, am I supposed to be able to become a member of a knightly order at level 2? That's exactly what I did.

Oh, surely not? I don't see how that works. Whether you liked the landscape of Oblivion or not, I don't see how you can say that Daggerfall's repetitive, randomly generated terrain can be more unique than Oblivion's. With the short playthrough I had of Daggerfall, I could see that it did have quite a few strong points over Oblivion. Its terrain was not one of them.

I'd like to add to this that they completely tore apart the established province of Cyrodiil. Gone were the endless jungles and thick forests. And for a full province, it was bloody tiny.

Cyrodiil is larger than Vvardenfell. Vvardenfell is artificially stuffed. Is Vvardenfell as it was presented in Morrowind present in Arena? I know Cyrodiil is not explorable in Arena, but Vvardenfell is. What if I base my expectations on Vvardenfell from what was shown in Arena? Also, Cyrodiil is as large as it needs to be. It could have been randomly-generated, like Arena of Daggerfall's entire land area, but then it wouldn't have anything interesting in it.

No one cares about the landmasses or lore Arena introduced because it is now very outdated and represents a totally different view of Tamriel as a dungeon delving D&D game.

Only you wouldn't, because Arena is crap, and you have higher standards.

I think I was still level 1 when I joined one of the knightly orders, IIRC. As far as the ghosts of Daggerfall are concerned, I never fought one and came out victorious. Without fail I would get paralyzed, then beat down. Then again, I didn't get very far in Daggerfall, either. Kind of makes me want to go back and play it. Only problem was that my computer didn't run it very smoothly, and I got a bit bored with the labyrinthian dungeons.

Why, no body cares? Once again, did you get a head count for this too? Hey, just asking since you like to make huge assumption.

Vvardenfell was an whole mountain. Hammerfell was a whole desert. Black Marsh was (still is) a whole swamp. Skyrim was entirely frozen. We couldn't even go to Cyrodiil.

The landmass is outdated, especially since Redguard and the First Pocket Guide which made a lot of the landmasses what they are today. It's simply outdated. It doesn't mean you have to like what happened to any of the land (although I don't know who would WANT Vvardenfell to be a total wasteland). But one must accept that was once cannon is not any longer.

Just as I hated what Oblivion did to Cyrodiil by turning it into a fairytale land of pixies and disney characters, that does not mean I don't realize it is canon. Just a bad decision and an unnecessary retcon.

This is one of the great tragedies of Oblivion. After I read the discription of what Cyrodiil was supposed to be, I felt a great sense of loss for what could have been. I think the size of each respective gameworld is just another reason why Morrowind 'felt' right, but Oblivion fell short of expectations. Morrowind was only trying to represent a part of a province - an island - and the gameworld did a great job of representing as much. Oblivion, on the other hand, was trying to represent the entire province of Cyrodiil, and yet it only managed to feel about as big as Vvardenfell. They simply tried to fit too much content in too small of a space.



Cyrodiil is only about 16mi² and is supposed to represent an entire province -- one of the largest in Tamriel, I might add. Morrowind is roughly 10mi² and is only representing an island within a province. I think if they did something similar in Oblivion, such as focus on the IC and its surrounding area, then added in more with GOTY expansions, then it would have been a little easier to swallow. Instead, what we got was an entire province that we could walk/run across within a few ingame hours. That's an inconsistency that is difficult to make an excuse for.

Not to mention the cultural differences between the nord-like Colovians and the strange masters of persuasion Nibenese were non-existent. The Colovians were the closest things to nords without being a nord. They were tough, hardy, self-sufficient, military types, and straight to the point. The Nibenese were sly, exotic, had quite the sharp tongue and wit, and powerful negotiators, with many trade channels by boat or raft. All we got was bland generic humans, with the only indication that they're different is a few lines, but it didn't have that much impact and left for something to be more desired.

In addition, the Imperial City was, at least, surrounded by a grassland, but shortly after it becomes an endless jungle, becoming more and more tropical as you go south and east. As you go west and north, the elevation rises and becomes a deciduous until you hit the sea.

With Morrowind, we ended up having a diverse culture, from the honor-bound but highly corrupt Redoran, to the sly and opportunistic Hlaalu, and the eccentric and crazy Telvanni to name a few. Each guild provided more insight into the land and culture, along with its dangers.

The Nibenese were the slippery ones, duh. Watch out for those slippery Nibenese!

Personally, I think being blown on by a god would have dried them off, but I guess Talos can't do everything.

I can confirm that all the negative impressions that have been expressed in this thread, i have felt are true too.

Thats one more vote out of many, im sure.

The great majority of people who cant understand criticisms of Oblivion never played Morrowind, let alone Redguard, the most detailed of them all

It is for Redguard which most of the current lore was developed for and it is Redguard's lore that is being undermined by Oblivion

Well, what do you expect from a bunch of people who live practically on the river; they're constantly getting wet!