Allow me to explain. Let's say I have 3 .omods...

A.omod
B.omod
C.omod

1) I install mode A. No problems.
2) Now I install mod B. Mod B overwrites 2 files from mod A; 1.nif and 2.nif.
3) Moving on to mod C. Mod C overwrites 1.nif

Now here's the problem... I decide I don't like mod C, so I deactivate mod C from OBMM. I'm screwed, because even if I deactivate mod C, the 1.nif from mod C will remain there, messing up mod B's install.

Now this may not seem like a big deal, but this is just an example. A real-life mod setup consists of .omods of unofficial patches, Qarl's texture pack, body mods, texture mods, who all overwrite the hell out of each other.

1) I install unofficial patches
2) I install Qarl's Redimized. Some files from the UOP will be overwritten.
3) I install Animated Window Lighting System. The mod overwrites files that both exist in Qarl's and the UOP.

In the above example, if I decide I don't like AWLS, I basically have to uninstall everything and start from scratch (vanilla) because a lot of files were overwritten in the process and keeping track is hard.

What I want IDEALLY is basically... a mod install system that makes backups of the overwritten files, and upon deactivating the latest mod in the install chain, files that were overwritten by the latest mod will be restored to the previous mod's version. Using my first example above (mods A, B and C):

1) I install mod A.
2) I install mod B. 1.nif and 2.nif from mod A is backed up, then gets overwritten with mod B's versions of the files.
3) I install mod C. 1.nif from mod B gets backed up, then overwrites that file with mod C's version.
4) I decide I don't like mod C. I uninstall it - 1.nif gets deleted, then the 1.nif from mod B that was backed up earlier is restored. Essentially making it as if I never installed mod C at all, restoring my mod setup to whatever it was before I installed mod C.

I will be honest and admit that I've never touhed BAIN before this because it seems kinda intimidating at first... I want to, but my time is really limited these days (I'm a full time sound engineer, I don't have as much gaming time as I used to when I was younger), you can imagine how much time modding can take out of you, especially for the bigger mods that change hundreds of files... installing/reinstalling from scratch is no fun.

So does BAIN work the way I *think* it does? I am willing to learn if it'll help me save time (and headaches) during my modding adventures.

Thanks for your time.

Yes - BAIN works like that, and that is the main reason to use BAIN instead of OBMM.

BAIN is by far the best way to install, configure, muck around with, and uninstall, Oblivion mods.

Check out the http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35230 for starters. Also, http://tesivpositive.animolious.com/ provides a lot of additional info and advice. And links. And stuff. It's good.

A bit of reading and learning (more familiarisation than anything, really) then, from that point, you're set up to *save* yourself time and hassles. Seriously. :yes:

Thank you for the quick replies... guess I have a lot of reading up to do.

One question though, can I simply dump my .omods into the BAIN installers folder and have it work right out the bat? Or is some special conversion procedure needed?

A lot of mods are BAIN-ready (or just simple archives, which is usually just as good) these days. So, you might be better off, in some cases, downloading a new/alternate version here and there.

But otherwise, you can use OBMM to convert omods to 7z archives, with or without omod info contained. A lot of the time, those resulting 7z archives can be used by BAIN, as is.

Anyway, those links I posted will bring you up to speed on that, and many other matters.

There is my old thread too: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/ first couple of posts go into a lot detail about difference between OBMM and BAIN and answer those questions.

Kinda wordy though - I'm told.

Aye, this be so true. There are other advantages to BAIN over OMODs, but this is a primary one. I converted late and will some reluctance, but once acclimated kick myself for not doing it sooner. OBMM still has its uses, but imo the more BAIN-centric your install is the better.

-Decrepit-

I am still of the opinion that the forum here tend to oversell BAIN to newcomers. I believe that OBMM is good enough for most newcomers, and quite a bit easier to get going than BAIN, thus a better starting tool for people who don't know exactly what they're doing. But for people relatively experienced with Oblivion modding, or to computers in general, BAIN is better for most mods - though it still lack the scripted ini file editing that make OBMM so important for mods like some of my own.

But I do generally prefer BAIN over OBMM myself of course.

Probably because by the time a person is posting here their 200+ mod install has gone terribly wrong.

My first install was all by hand. Second with OBMM. Third BAIN. If using 10-30 mods then yeah probably best to stick to OBMM. But if using a bashed patch and Wrye Bash at all - why not use BAIN.

Once BAIN can do scripted ini settings - I wonder where you will stand.

Well, I mean to recall more than once that newcomers who try to install only a very few mods are told to start using BAIN.

About the same position I have now. I would have switched to 100% BAIN myself already if not for having to maintain all the omod installation scripts. When BAIN get scripted ini config, I'm still going to maintain the omod installation scripts for all the players using OBMM, but I will likely add BAIN installation scripts too, depending on the amount of work needed.

I suppose I've been guilty of that - but so often the issues that people post about are issues that BAIN distinctly address. http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1168209-game-crashes-when-i-talk-to-anyone-help/

So ... you know.

It's still a better system, even then. In fact, better to start early, and therefore be more likely to think about mods in a more logical, constructive way. It actually helps to teach gamers more about Oblivion and OB mods, the types of filenames, processes involved, etc. This is a good thing, for so many reasons, not least of which is that there will be fewer repetitive threads that really shouldn't even exist. But hey, whatever works. :shrug:

;)

And if, for example, something should go wrong - and this is SO easy, with OBMM, let alone manually - BAIN can get you back to where you were, almost instantly (depending on the size of the mods in question, I guess! ) No other method can offer that. Simple as that.

Do you really think most mod-users want to know those kind of things? I think the majority of mod users just want to install a few mods and play, and is more likely to give up than having to learn such things. Yes, it saves a modder lots of problems if he knows all this, but expecting the majority to be open for learning all this, is the first mistake IMHO. I understand the good intentions, and heartily agrees that it is a good thing to know about such things and than BAIN is a much better tool for people who knows what they're doing or want to learn it, but all players aren't like that. There's no single shoe that fits all.

I really do think that most Oblivion gamers (who use mods, or who want to) would benefit from knowing those kinds of thing, if that counts. Whether, strictly speaking, they *want* to at first, is hardly the point. How many people out there *want* to RTFM?

Exactly.

But if you think it's better that they stumble along, half blindly, and almost inevitably end up asking for others to RTFM or think for them, cool. Or cry, "Help, help!" when they can't (easily and painlessly, if that...) undo what they've done. Each to their own, I suppose. :shrug:

Even just for that one reason - simple, hassle-free, transparent backtracking - BAIN is 100% superior. As in, it can do that in the first place. Unfortunately, there's a small number of things that OBMM, or manual installation, is still required for. Like, say, scripted ini edits (though you can get around that, with BAIN, sure enough) and Oblivion shader editing. But it's only a matter of time. And then, I'll have absolutely *no* hesitation in recommending ditching OBMM altogether, and using BAIN for just about everything. :yes:

I get what NiceOne is saying - that the majority of mod users do not want to be bothered to learn about the mechanics under the hood. He admitted that BAIN is better - just more complicated. Something to lose sight of hanging around here too much.

He also makes mods that don't necessarily require bash and if he did I'd bet there would be a change in tune. It is also strange that he makes extremely complex mods then dresses them up with fancy omod scripts, but as soon as errors occur - it is back under the hood. An argument could as easily be made that debugging errors on heavily scripted mods are also a point past which many do not want to tread. In fact I'm much more comfortable juggling replacer install order in BAIN than ever trying to decipher what conscribe spits out so that I can get a cogent report back to NiceOne.

Now mods that do require bash but the authors promote OBMM - that is just weird to me and I'm certain you are all as tired as I am of me pointing that out. But seriously ... WTH is up with that?

It is about degrees I think. Assuming everyone will eventually climb to max mods is erroneous and this forum is not an indication of what most would want to do.

We're going a bit astray here. Let us not forget, in the heat of battle, that in this particular case OP appears to have already stumbled upon limitations of OMODs and is at least mildly frustrated by them. That being the case, it makes perfect sense for thread replies to stress the virtues of Wrye Bash over OBMM as an installer. I quite agree that for many, especially those running few mods or simply the sort of mods that don't overlap other resources, OMODs are quite satisfactory. Heck, some installations don't even need a Bashed Patch. That said, once mastered BAIN is the better installer. Those who, like OP, feel the need for more control than OMODs provide should, in my opinion, be encouraged to make the switch.

But that's just me. :shrug:

I like OBMM for mods that have lots of configuration, or come prepackaged in OMOD form. BAIN is great for big texture replacements and the like - I use both and they both serve their purpose admirably.

Agree. There really is no need to go the "BAIN rocks / OMOD suxors" route. The fact of the matter is that without OBMM and Timeslips' hard work, there wouldn't really be very much of an Oblivion modding scene, As much as we all love and use Wrye, it is entirely too complex for the average mod user. Who, incidentally, probably isn't posting here. If it were broken into modules and came with clearer documentation, it would less intimidating.

Not muc, since I fully agree with you - but it still don't remove the fact that many will rather give up than having to grasp this, or try but fail miserably before giving up an going back to manual install.

Yes, that's exactly what I think [insert a smiley that shows how stupid I think such kind of arguments are]



Yes. There's no doubt that WB is more intimidating than OBMM. At TESNexus, people give OBMM way more endorsemant than WB, if nothing else, indicating that many more people use OBMM than WB - yet there are lot more propblem questions about WB than OBMM.

I'll repeat that I think BAIN (and not to mention the rest of WB) is superior to OBMM - though just not for the non-PC-savy newcomer.


I really don't get what you're aiming at here. I do my best to support BAIN installation with my mods, and they have never required OBMM (or BAIN).

And as for asking people to help debug, I am fully aware that most players will or cannot assist in finding mod incompatibilities or bugs, but I expect players to try according to their knowledge if they expect me to try helping them finding the problem's source. Are you saying that I should just drop all debug stuff and only fix errors if I encounter them myself during play, or? I just don't see any connection between asking players to assist me to find their problems, and asking players to use a tool that is more complicated than their own best.

True, that's what I'm thinking and trying to say.

True enough. Though the http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35230 shouldn't be too hard, so long as they possess working eyes.* Surely...

I see what you are saying. I simply disagree. That's all.

But enough with the back and forth, yes? I think the thread will be the better for it.


* edit: Probably fingers too. Though there are probably workarounds in both cases. Hm...

Oh, well it's too bad that BAIN doesn't support scripted INI edits yet. I have a few .omods that have scripted INI edits. Guess I can't do a 100% switchover yet. I was about to start converting all of my .omods to BAIN-ready archives...

I don't like the idea of having half of my mods in BAIN format and the other half in OBMM. I want a single, unified mod install interface.

Guess I'll have to wait for scripted INI edits in BAIN installers...

Ohh - I'm not trying to say anything underhanded ... no accusations - no blame. I'm not part of any combat mentioned above. If anything you bend over backwards to help and package mods so that most can install them. Just that when things break down then they will find themselves in the same deep waters anyway. Debugging a heavily scripted mod can be more complicated at times than figuring out what happened to a replacer. So that is a degree too and that doing this gets much deeper into complexity, for me, than fiddling with install order in BAIN.

I think that BAIN is not that complicated once you get the basics down. Trying to for instance get that bug report to you about enhanced hotkeys took a lot of testing on my part - more complicated than if it were just a replacer issue. I'm just contrasting the claim that BAIN is complex with how complex your mods are (under the surface).

And you are right - just have to look at download numbers - OBMM by far is used by most. Still partly that has to do with packaging and presentation my mod makers. So while in the fallout games Valda ported bash to both games (BAIN too) mod makers for some reason themselves did not take to Bash (but are ok with the GECK/CS???) and so Fallout Mod Manager remains the most used installer. Valda went into semi retirement and so again no active support. What is happening here with Wrye Bash seems unique - I've seen other games with mod installers and once done it is done - no team constantly developing further. But even with a team of developers on Bash - OBMM is still more popular says a lot about what a convenience it is.

Offer an OMOD and you are less likely to get questions about BAIN or desire or need to learn. I agree with Breton Paladin then that learning OMODs might seem convenient at first - it is such a black box form of installing that you have to learn a lot when starting over or doing manual installs or BAIN - both of which are more aligned with each other than OBMM is. I also think that OBMM places more work on the mod maker too - taking responsibility away from the mod user. Another recipe for getting lost because it deceptively appears as if installing mods is easy and hides the enormous amount of conflcits and issues that can be brewing under the surface.

Again - no accusations or blame or anything. The only accusations I'd make is that you are helpful and accommodating, but not to a fault.

Just debate not combat.

Having just switched to using BAIN after playing Oblivion for 3+ yrs, I still like and use OBMM. I admit that it doesn't handle uninstalls as well, but double-click on an omod and you are done. From a users perspective, nothing could be simpler. With BAIN, you have to remember to select "has extra directories" or not everything will be installed. Then you have to go to the mods tab and remember to check off the plugin. I just installed the bloody thing - why do I now have to go the mods tab and check it off. I like BAIN too, but it is a pita to use.

From another perspective, I've now started to package my mods as a BAIN compatible install. Once again, the support requests I've gotten have increased. For the same reasons I noted above. With OBMM I can have a script that will assist the user with installing my mod and when they are done running that script - it's done. They don't have a bunch of other things they need to do. Even adding a BAIN wizard won't replace everything that needs to be done to install a mod using BAIN.

BAIN is for modders. OBMM is for players.

Yeah that whole thing about has extra directories and BAIN not installing OBSE plugins and shaders were design choices made by Wrye, so as to not step on the toes of OBMM - even though Timeslip pretty much gave him the go ahead if he wanted to.

Out of respect they have stayed 'features' but that is slowly changing. Perhaps at some point the option has extra directories can by implemented globally. I actually prefer the non active esp - considering that BOSS and other things come after that.

I'm not a modder and BAIN is for me.

So are there any actual plans to add INI scripting to BAIN, or is it just a modder's pipe dream? How far off til such a feature is added?