This is basically a self-appointed consumer group that has announced that they are lodging a complaint to the government. The government hasn't responded, nor is there any precedent for the government to take action in such a case. Even if there were, the publisher would only have to say "we're working on a patch" and the government would back off and it would be another year before any more action would be initiated.

There is nothing in this for Bethesda to fret over.

Bethesda has lots of reasons to try to make their games as bug free and pleasurable an experience as possible. This isn't one of them.

There is a line between self-entitlement and being pissed off with the rank profiteering which goes on behind Call of Duty (My PC copy is still ridden with bugs). Probably the biggest waste of ￡40 in my life - I'd have probably got more enjoyment if I'd spent ￡40 on a happy meal, and I don't even like MacDonalds. But I don't think we'll ever see Bethesda go down that road, and while bugs might be unavoidable in the first release, they'll sure as hell be working hard to fix them in the patch.

That's a good anology, and this is where we a consumers can apply pressure. Some things, I'm sure, are technologically challenging and may be very hard for game designers to fix, but this....this is unacceptable.

I'm fine with bugs as long as they get patched eventually. All programs have them there is no making something as complex without unexpected glitches. But may philosophical attitude may be because I'm a PC gamer - I get use made fixes within hours of a bug being found, in fact if I check the forums now and than I don't even encounter bugs - I usually install the fix prior to that. So Oblivion was not the slightest bit buggy for me, neither was Morrowind and neither will be Skyrim, even if they have a huge hole in the middle of it to begin with

One more thing about the "you can't fix all of the bugs because of the millions of different PC configurations":

Again, 90% of the bugs in TES are completely independent of PC configuration. And the rest aren't that much of a problem. A bug that goes away after you reinstall the game is not a critical bug (although it never hurts to fix it). If a quest-relevant NPC can be killed by random encounters on a Windows platform, chances are high it can also be on the Xbox. If you get infinite XP just from going through a door over and over (this was a Dragon Age bug, and I consider it extremely harmful, because it allows you to cheat without wanting to, reducing the feeling of having beat the game) on a PC, then you also get it on the Xbox.

Sometimes I really wish game manufacturers would have their games playtested by more than random people or relatives. What about some roleplayers who care about strategy? What about some p&pers? What about some modders who have their eyes sharpened by experience?

actually it's the other way around imo. The self entitlement is from older gamers. 25-30+. And is a good thing.

Youngins these days have no idea that there are even loads of government backed agencys looking out for their consumer rights. IMO Use it or lose it.

I don't even...

I never encountered any bugs with Bethesda games, so I can't speak with (seemingly) everybody else. Though can you honestly expect a bug-free game with the sheer size of TES/Fallout? As long as it's not as bad as New Vegas, with my weapons clipping into my torso (literally stabbed through my torso) and companions constantly disappearing, then turning hostile when I go to get them when they reappear.

bugs are normal, they are an inevitability, they will always be here even if we make the NCC enterprise

Ha, yeah, I mean, "self entitlement"? So consumers are a freaking charity now?

That group seems like a bunch of butthurt nerds.

The same could be said about the founding fathers of the USA and all who fought for the separation from the British Empire?

That's how things get done and precedents are set.

Perhaps Twisted Sister said it best? "We're not gonna take it, anymore!

or not. That is like 30 years old :disco:

Lol bit overdramatic - it's just a couple of bugs

I do think that it should be seen as unacceptable to release a game that is unplayable because of certain gamebreaking bugs, bit all the little bugs/glitches should be expected/allowed for (and patched down the road). I'm on a console so any user made patches don't do anything for me :shrug:

If that were the case then they should NOT release it in the UK. Sorry guys I have nothing agaisnt you, but your government is severely screwed up.

I came into this thread knowing someone would flame bethesda for NV despite them not making it.

Anyway bugs are to be expected in big games, people should get over it and accept that.

I think there is alot of misinformation about game bugs out there, and the level of obligation that companies have to fix them (which is Zero today). In America the only statute that could apply would be an interpretation of the Lemon Law - but the game would have to broken at point of purchase, and the current laws do not cover video games, there are no cases, no prescident for anyone to claim.

Also consider that Bethesda Does try to fix their bugs, and have released many patches for each of the games they make. This doesn't mean that they fix everything that is broken, and nor are they obligated to by law. Products have flaws all the time, its only when those flaws become Dangerous to the public health that it becomes something the courts can bite into. But a video game bug? Not likely.

It would also be disingenuous to think that Bethesda wants bugs in their games - no one does. They do their best to find and fix the bugs using the closed-loop QA cycle (without betas), but they will never find them all with as large and expansive as these games are. Nor do I see them changing their stance on Betas anytime soon - their software development model would have to be geared towards early releases, and I don't think they are. Instead I think they cram as much content and goodness into the games that they possibly can before shipping, and I like this alot. I am more than willing to take the bugs if it means more content, more story.

Miax

We do accept that. What we don't accept is their point blank refusal to fix them when gamebreaking bugs become apparent.

Bug Free Video Games = The Revolution?

Next thing you know, they will celebrate the day I send my Xbox in to get fixed as the next Bastille Day.

Honestly, this is an impossible thing to regulate with its original goal in mind, and if you want to compromise with developers then you end up with a watered down pointless system that does nothing. Game Developers eliminate bugs because it affects sales. If a game is too buggy for you, then don't buy it. Do your research.

Otherwise, why doesn't the government step in with the high failure rate of Xbox consoles? Or the flaws with the iPhone 4? Because there are bigger problems to deal with, and the world isn't going to cater to some butthurt gamers who believe they are entitled to nothing but perfection.

I expected some bugs, but there's an acceptable level and FNV doesn't hit that level yet. I bought FNV for PS3 first and then wanted to learn to mod so I got it for PC. If I hadn't done that, the game would be on the shelf, never to be touched again. As it is, I can play on the PC with Bugfixes made by the wonderful community of modders but the PS3 version crashes so often that I won't play it...and another reason I won't is because of the new bugs they introduced on the last patch. We've had no word about another patch to fix the additional problems and it seems they don't want to put in the time. $$$$

It's very hard to not be bitter about that - after I supported the game wholeheartedly and expected them to honor the unwritten contract to provide people with a good product. I feel very badly for people who are having a worse time than I am.

Headline news next month:

Skyrim UK release delayed by five months to meet activists' high standards. Rest of world can enjoy it on time.

FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU...

*sigh* First Game Informer not being available, now this.

No, not at all.

The founding fathers actually took military action against the British. These guys are asking the government to do something that they can't even do.

Something like this would have to be handled in court, but since no laws are being broken there is no case. Thus, nothing is actually wrong with the game, nothing will happen, and nothing of value was lost.

Yea I never really had a problem with the glitches in Bethesda games.Its something that is common on release for them and yet everytime people buy the game they are surprised.

I agree, for the most part. Nothing gets on my nerves like people who think they're entitled to this and that, what you say is true and that is something people need to deal with.

However, some games are just ridculously buggy, Oblivion is a prime example. That game was basically unplayable on release, New Vegas was fine for me, though unplayable for others. That kind of thing is unacceptable. We are not entitled to much, but we are entitled to a product that works. Some bugs will always be there, but if we pay for something and it does not work at all, that's not good enough, and the developer/publisher needs to be held accountable for that.

EDIT: By the way, I've played Black Ops, not much, but a little. My brother plays is a lot, and I've never seen any truly gamebreaking bugs. Nothing that can't be caused my my [censored] connection anyway.


You should have a problem with that, everyone should, i certainly do.

It's one thign when it's on PC, the mod community has been fixing Bethesda games for years, and done a pretty damn good job. But most people are not modders, most people don't use mods for whatever reason, and it's not our responsibility to make sure the games work right, besides, there's only so much we can do. If everyone said "Nah, it's fine, we'll wait" guess what: Bethesda (Or any other developer/publisher) would think "Oh well, no rush".

Obviously that's a gross generalization, not all developers are like that and some still take pride in what they do, I'm sure Bethesda wants to keep their customers happy, any sane company would.

My point is this: If we just sit around and wait, without voicing our complaints, our opinions and the fact that we will not accept broken games, then we're doing more harm than good. To ourselves, and to the developer. The developer can grow complacent or keep releasing buggy games because they think we're okay with that (Come on Bethesda, i know you can do better with testing, you know that too.) and we're hurting ourselves because...well, we get buggy games to play.

Actually, if gamesas seriously felt it was at risk of suffering legal action as a result of this endeavor being successful, it could just as easily pull out of the U.K. market. Plenty of customers in America and in places besides the U.K to make a profit.