I remember being somewhat dissatisfied with the worlds of Oblivion and, to a lesser extent, Skyrim, thinking to myself, "Gosh, Morrowind let you do so much more!" To a degree this is true. Levitation, free use of containers and beds, the extensive number of guilds... These are topics that have all been discussed at great length, and these are all good fun.

Coming back to Morrowind thanks to the Steam sale, however, there is one thing I have noticed that really sticks out about the game.

Mechanically, Morrowind encourages completely antisocial, psychopathic, and kleptomaniac behavior.

There are NO consequences for killing a random person in cold blood, using their house as your own, stealing everything in town, then selling it all to the local Khajiit general store. In fact, if you don't do this, you'll be hurting for a place to live and you might be short on gold early in the game. On top of that, you can taunt or frenzy everyone in a town and kill EVERY LAST PERSON... without even getting a bounty.

From a game standpoint, this isn't necessarily a big problem. But how can one immerse his or herself in a world where the best course of action is "kill everyone, steal everything"? The lore and culture of Morrowind is arguably the most fascinating of the series. And yet, the game's mechanics push players to just mow everything down.

For all the discussion of the combat, walking speed, and lack of full voice acting, I feel this is the biggest issue against the game keeping it from being immersive today. Self control, you say? Sure. Give me SOME consequence, though.

For murder:

Oblivion has you visited by the Dark Brotherhood for murdering someone. This is likely desirable for most players, but if you want to roleplay, at least there's something to remind you that, "Ooh, you murdered that person." Skyrim's NPCs all have some semblance of a personality and many/most come in handy down the line so you probably won't want to kill them.

For stealing:

In Oblivion and Skyrim you can only sell stolen things to certain NPCs. Even if this is a bit extreme, I finally understand why.

So, my personal question: has anybody attempted to remedy this quirk in Morrowind? Is it even possible within the mechanics of the game? I've been excited for OpenMW, but before I see fancy physics or action-style combat, I want to be encouraged to not act like a kleptomaniac serial killer.

Am I alone in this?

With me, it's not a matter of "self control," it's a matter of roleplaying. Roleplaying, to me, is the creative application of self-limitation. I don't need the game to tell me what to do or what not to do. My characters determine this. So I guess this has never bothered me much. Roleplaying is my solution.

Well said. I couldn't agree with person more.

Role-Playing, For The Win!

This was one of the terrible things Oblivion introduced to the series. Truly awful. How on earth could a merchant possibly know that an item is stolen? He's never seen it before. It doesn't have "STOLEN" stamped on it. There is no possible way a merchant should be able to identify stolen items on sight. I wish the series would go back to the Morrowind approach.

But add the "I know that you are selling me back my own things, you knave!" approach?, on that, I agree

On one hand, I agree. On the other hand, I can see they were trying to discourage kleptomania with the mechanic. There might be better ways to handle this.

More power to you, but it doesn't solve MY problem of being influenced by a game's mechanics. :[

this could be said foe many of the complaints of all the games in the series. "I can joinvery guild and there is no conflict." "I can be a stormcloak and walk right up to an imperial with no consequences. " I don't need game mechanics, mods or self contril at all to restrict me, my role play restricts my character. I take a very long time developing my character and his backstory. Then that character plays the game. If my character would not do something or would not go to a certain place due to his affiliations, then he doesn't. My pure mage or paladin character would not pick a lock, even though I could in game. Another thing is carry capacity, the game tells me I can carry 8 weapons and 42 potions and 900 arrows and five sets of armor. Realistic? No. I tend to carry what my character would be carrying. It's all about the role play. I think I spend more time creating my character and his back story than I end up playing them in game. I can't even count how many characters I have saved in game.

Too many player walk-throughs do read like, "steal everything in the C & E building, then kill someone in Balmora for their house and finally beat up all of the children in the schoolyard for their lunch money." Morrowind allows the player the freedom to play any great hero or pathetic clown they choose. Most players would never think to take such ridiculous and unnecessary actions, but the "advice" persists. Why waste time stealing some useless crap, when you can make potions, enchanted items, filled soul gems etc.? Why murder someone for a hovel when you can quest your way to a stronghold of your choice? Why be a zero instead of a hero? One might RP a loser who eventually sees the light, but it is certainly not the "best" way to adventure.

I agree, but it actually happened in Morrowind too. Do that first thieves guild quest where Habasi wants you to steal a diamond from that shop in Balmora? If you actually steal the diamond, then *every* single diamond in the game is now marked as stolen and no regular non-Khajit merchants anywhere in Morrowind will buy diamonds from you for the rest of the game. Fortunately, you can loot or buy a diamond from anywhere and Habasi will take it to avoid that issue.

As for the original question, I don't make characters that would even think of doing those types of things. Even my assassin character only killed professionally and not for selfish reasons. He legitimately earned his Redoran stronghold and made do with inns or empty houses in the meantime. You can also get a house for free right at the beginning in Seyda Neen by completing a particular quest there. Resources and gold practically fall out of the sky in Morrowind even if you never kill or steal from any innocent NPCs.

Well I just roleplay my characters with specific set of morals. Many of my characters steal all the time, yet never become violent unless in self defense. Is that the embodiment of goodliness and benevolence? The embodiment of a hero? Not really, but I just don't have a need to play like Obi Wan Kenobi. I've also on the other hand role played violent murderous oppressive overlords who view sneaking, stealing, and using magic as wrong. You know the twisted type of person, that thinks stealing anything is worse than murdering the innocent, who technically has morals, but the morals don't keep them from being highly malevolent.

I guess playing a highly moral hero isn't really important to me, and I find it more interesting playing characters who have moral flaws in one way or another. I usually go the route of one character being the non violent thief that also oddly enough tries to protect the innocent and cares about the poor and so on- with the whole logic being I'm stealing so I can become stronger to bring justice to the world, and the other character being serial killer with an extremely warped view of morality who thinks murdering everyone isn't as bad as stealing a statue from someone.

Trying to roleplay a purely good character sounds like it could be challenging and interesting in the sense of the challenge, but also potentially frustrating.

House mods are a dime a dozen. Besides, why do you need a house early on except for roleplaying purposes (or mods that add the need to sleep)?

There are much more lucrative alternatives to robbing commoners. Assuming unmodded Morrowind, you can sell potions and filled soulgems. Later on, dremoras, golden saints and bandit caves provide plenty of loot.

No, you can sell diamonds to any merchant except the one you stole the diamond from. Guards will take all diamonds from your inventory if you get caught for another crime, though. There were some changes to this in the latest MCP, I don't recall exactly what, though.

Well, house mods, of course, can take away much of this early gameplay where the player is a poor nobody who might have to steal to get along, and if there just happens to be a big, empty house ready to move in for free in a convenient location, it just does not feel right to me... I actually enjoy this early phase of the game (or any game which has this) very much, and a house is something I want my character to have earned, so at least it should cost a good sum of money. For the same reason I think it ruins this part of the game that the Tribunal expansion assassins appear just from the start and in unlimited numbers until the player has talked to some guy - their armors are much too strong and valuable for new characters, but fortunately, there are mods which delay the attacks until the player is stronger and better known in the game world so it actually makes sense that he is attacked. To me, this has nothing to do with role-playing, it's just a very poor implementation of the expansion.

Anyway, I agree with what was said before... Yes, it is possible to play a character who steals and kills at will and gets away with it - but that does not mean it has to be played like this. There are actually a number of things in the game that can be exploited and it's up to the player if he wants to do that. Role-playing is a big part of experiencing Morrowind, and that also means not always do what gives the biggest in-game advantage, but what makes the most sense for the character.

My god, it hurts my heart when I read statements like this. "Except for roleplaying purposes???" That is precisely what we are doing here, is it not? Are we not not roleplaying in this game? Isn't roleplaying why we bought this game and why we play this game and why we are here on these forums for a developer of roleplaying games?

I don't understand people who buy roleplaying games and don't roleplay. I strikes me as bizarre as a person buying a shooter game and not shooting or buying a strategy game and not strategizing.

I categorize Morrowind's approach as 'unrestricted-selling-without-consequences.' I categorize Oblivion's approach as 'restricted-selling-without-consequences.' Neither game imposes consequences on our actions. Oblivion's approach is just one more example of hand-holding, as far as I'm concerned.

If I were in charge of TES VI *snaps suspenders self-importantly* I would allow any character to attempt to sell anything to any merchant. But if the character tried to sell a stolen item I would add a percentage chance that the merchant would alert the guards and the character would be fined and hauled off to jail. In addition, the character would forfeit some reputation in that city or region. That, to my mind, is a consequence.

And that reputation loss would have a serious impact on game dynamics in my imaginary game. But that's another topic altogether...

This is quite simple I would say. In short, you are wrong.

The longer answer is that you are seeing this the wrong way. In no way are you encouraged to neither steal nor murder in MW. You are free to do exactly as you please. It's the later games that encourages you to play in a specific way, namely the goody two shoes version.

I do agree that it's too easy to get away with things in MW but giving shopkeepers magical talents is definately not the answer. And if you kill someone and nobody knows you did it, what kind of consequenses is logical in that situation?

The one big flaw in MW regarding this is the home owners blind trust in strangers walking into their homes. In the later games, if you walk into someones house, they at least follow you around, that's something I would like to see in MW. Making stealing a lot harder and it's logical.

For me, if something is not logical, it throws my immersion out the window completely.

Uh no, it didn't work that way. Yeah if you stole an item, it will always be marked as stolen, and guards will take them if you try to pay a bounty to them. But you could sell the items to any merchant you wanted except the person you stole it from.


It was a dumb mechanic, but it wasn't intentional. Mods couldn't fix it cus it was literally a flaw in the coding. It wasn't as bad to the extent you say though. Not all merchants knew they were stolen, only the merchant you stole from will always recognize that item type as theirs though.


The oblivion and skyrim approaches were literally intentional by design.

Bethesda did their usual solution to problems, instead of fixing a flaw, they axe it or put an arbitrary limitation that makes no sense (like essential characters, especially when they had a solution in skyrim in the form of protected characters, which was different from essential and literally solved all the problems with characters accidentally getting killed).

I want to make it clear first of all that I don't dislike the game. I do like it, but coming back to it after so long, this part of the game stood out to me.

Ultimately, since it's an interactive video game, players are confined by the game's mechanics. In the case of Morrowind, from a strictly mechanical standpoint, I feel it encourages antisocial behavior in the game. Imagination is fine, but when it gets to that level, for me personally, I feel like I might as well be playing a pen and paper RPG or a roguelike like Tales of Maj'Eyal. (This isn't a knock against P&P or ToME.)

I agree with your first point, and a potential consequence could be a karma stat that only daedra and/or the divines know about. That's just an idea, though.

Now, THIS seems like something that could be done to "fix" this issue, even under the current framework of the game. Sleeping could be impossible in an inhabited house without being reported to the guards, and uninhabited houses could also occasionally be patrolled by guards, making squatting in a house unfeasible unless you buy it from a local magistrate or something first.

Anyway, I was hoping for some discussion on this topic and there have been some interesting responses.

I never felt Morrowind encouraging me to do something in particular. To me, the game seems to welcome all types of characters about equally. Like the newer games, the game doesn't push me that hard towards certain outcome (doesn't hint my char should be a male Nord using heavy armor, or that I should beat the MQ and other questlines without derailing). That the game gives me a chance to use Illusion magic to the extenct that nobody knew it was my character who planned the murder of the whole city, doesn't mean that it somehow encourages me to do so. In fact, I've never felt like doing that in MW.

Also, there is a clear consequence, and it's bounty and getting arrested/fined. The player may develop to become good enough to know how to prevent the character getting caught, though. But that results from learning to play and learning to exploit a game mechanic. The consequence, however, is there.

Role-playing by self-control and self-imposed limitations has more to do with pretending than with true role-playing.

If you treat your character as a person and play the game according to the personality you gave him you'll see why TES are so successful and unforgettable games.

If the game gives you an opportunity to get filthy rich from level 3 just by easily stealing a golden saint soulgem, think about the character first. What i mean by that? Well, if your let's say assasin character value honor, integrity or mental strength, there is no reason to play him like a petty drug user stealing stuff from here and there.

If you are uncertain for the mechanics, I can assure you that the game won't force you to play out of character in order to progress. You don't have to steal anything to make money, sooner or later you'll become rich either way. Forget about mechanics for a while and try to experience the game from the eyes of your character.

Here we are with another player doing something that isn't part of the game "because I can," and then complaining that the game lets him do it.

This is a great idea. I'd love to see consequences of this nature.

As an extension of this concept, the chance for them to notice that an item is stolen should by increased by X percent if it's from the same region as the shopkeeper, Y percent if it's from the same settlement as the shopkeeper (in addition to the region bonus), Z percent if it's from a faction that the shopkeeper belongs to (in addition to the previous bonuses), and be a flat 100% chance if it was stolen from the shopkeeper you just tried to sell it to.

1. Who doesnt want to be a physcotic, anti social and or kleptomatic man-god who can kill people in "self defense" with a green fart cloud ? I mean techinically speaking who wants to have a fart coming from a ring and hiting you in the face pobably making you smell bad wouldent you kill that person ? Who knows how bad it smells.

2. The npc's dont use they're bed's i mean comon all they know to do is stand around and look brain dead half of the time. Who knows maybe they have a caset tape with all they're dialouge and they are all just muted and have to type up everything everytime you click on a topic.

More serious thing below.

Look if you dont want to go around killing people with a frenzy then dont, If you dont want to use a bed without consiquneces then dont ! if you think these things are stupid than dont do them thats all i can say