I've played Fallout 1,2 and 3. I try and pay attention to story stuff but I havent read the bible or anything. What I don't understand is why oh why did vault-tec decide to do this grand social experiment with the vaults? Assuming they dont care about people it still doesnt make any practical sense. The vaults existed for the apoclaypse so our species and hopefully america could survive. Isnt it retarded to intentionally sabatage the vaults so precious humans die or are otherwise screwed over? And Vault-Tec itself would cease to exist as a company not to mention the results they gain would be useless as there is no longer an economy or any reason to try and sell this stuff. Even if Vault-Tec had their own safe vault, after they opened up the knowledge they gained from the experiment is worthless because there are no customers, no government, no stock market.



Someone please explain?

Only word: Enclave.

The Vaults never intend to save people but to be a huge social experiment.
Fromhttp://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vault-Tec
"The true reason for the construction of the Vaults was to allow the government to secretly study pre-selected segments of the American population to observe how they would react to the stresses of isolation and how successfully they would re-colonize the devastated Earth after the Vault opened. It was the Enclave, a secret shadow organization of federal officials and corporate executives within the federal government that used the Vault-Tec company to set up this sinister experiment. Ultimately, the Vaults were created not to save American citizens, but to carry out often immoral experiments on live human subjects"

So they and they custumers survive as The Enclave, in safe areas like the Oil-rig. And after some time they went to the vaults and collect the data about it (like what happens in Fallout 2 when the Enclave invaded the Vault 13).

Okay so Vault-Tec was a dummy corporation for the Enclave. It still doesn't explain why the enclave wanted to do this. What would a shadow government of rich old guys gain from killing almost everyone in the country? The enclave was all about purity and they hate mutants, ghouls and even slightly mutated humans but people from the vault would have been "pure" and they ruined them. Did they really think they could repopulate and countrol the whole country from the one or two vaults that were safe? And again what knowledge could they have really gained that would have made all this useful?

Thats the Enclave today. You need to rewind a few hundred years, before the bombs.

A number of powerful people, including government members and businessmen see the end of the world coming. They want to surivive, and they want the "right people" to surivive. They anticipate that a post nuclear world to be completely inhabitable... So the plan is made for the "right people", or their decendands to board a "generation ship" to find another habitable planet.

The Vaults, and even the Enclave facility were never meant to repopulate the earth - The Enclave folks originally planned to leave this popsicle stand behind. The vaults were experiments meant to simulate potential situations onboard this ship, in order to maximise the survival chances of the "in" (enclave) crowd.

Since the folks in the vaults didnt have the right stuff (if they did, they'd be in the enclave [oil rig] facility, not in a vault), there was no intention to bring them along.

WOW I didn't know that the enclave were building a spaceship and their master plan was to leave the planet? Isn't that pretty much what that cult in Fallout 2 was doing? How far did the enclave get with the spaceship thing, what caused the plan to fail. Can you actually see this spaceship somewhere?


Thanks for all this information, it actually makes sense now. I can look at fallout in a whole new light.

yes in fallout 2 I believe you can go on a quest giving the enclave are some group real rocket full and or a ethanol product . Either way the ship is eithers blows up or the astronuts suffocate in space.

I am pretty sure the cultists in Fallout 2 did it because I think they are either crazy and/or idiots. Good ridden they are gone forever.

The Rocket the Enclave were planning to take to get out of Earth before the Great Wars was found in http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bloomfield_Space_Center. It did not goes as planned and the War happen too early, thus they have to find a safe-spot and abandon the Space Mission. I would assume this was one of the plot and location in the cancel'd game, Van Buren.

i agree that the vault experiments dont make sense, for so many reasons

No, thats the Hubologists. A local Cult, and no relation.

Van Buren was going to contain the space aspects of the Enclaves original plan.

They wanted to play God under the pretense of saving humanity.

and thats whats so funny from a canon standppint.. what would be the point of the experiments if the enclave were going to go into space.. lets keep in mind the people that were gonna have this happen are the same people that created the enclave after the fact in the first place.

The experiments from that perspective make sense.

A "Generation ship" (Starship with either no faster than light drive, or a very slow one; is intended that the people that initally board the ship will give way to a new generation and die long before arriving where they're supposed to be going, perhaps multiple generations are involved) is going to be a very claustraphobic place. The people on board the ship are going to face a lot of unique circumstances and situations that humanity has never faced, there are all sorts of things that could possibly go wrong, and the Enclave conspiracy could not be sure what factors may, or may not effect long term survivial - Would a more diverse set of people have a better or worse chance of long term surivival? What if only children were aboard, would they adapt better? Is an equal gender mix ideal, what effect would a higher proportion of males/females have? How are people going to react to a situation there there is no chance of getting out in the forseeable future?

These are questions we cannot answer today, and any manned space travel beyond the moon run in the real world would need to answer some of these. We have run similar (if greatly toned down versions of) these experiments (I remember reading about a "Dry run" of a mars mission, where a group of people were sealed into an underground facility with food, water, etc, with no prospect of them leaving for 12 months.).

i see what yorue saying but some of the scenarios were just ridiculous with no scientific value what so ever.
also, considering for those exdperiments to even start, there would have to be a nuclear war and then wait up to 200 years in some cases for research to complete before even planning on setting sail for another planet that you dont even know you can colonize? it kind of defeats the purpose really.. it also defeats the purpose of launching FEV into the jet-stream to kill everything off if their plan the entire time was to re-colonize on another planet

Better to wait 200 years for research to complete than take off and destroy yourselves. The Enclave Conspiracy at the time the plan was formed were playing the long game at that point. Whats 200 years when you're saving thousands of years of recorded human history?

At some point before FO2 the colonise-another-world plan had been long abandoned. Possible theories are damage to the spacecraft, the earth being more habitable than anticipated, or the leaders just plain changing their mind.

just thinking that if you were to survive 200 years while still on the planet, then you probably wouldnt need to leave to begin with.. after 200 years rad levels would pretty much be back to normal, leaving and therefore vault experiments to prep for that would be moot

i would go with the changing their minds a la "whos retarded idea was this experiment system to begin with?"

especially if youre gonna consider fallout 3 canon.. why would you ever need to test out these scenarios in prep for space travel if you have the tranquil loungers?

The Enclave was anticipating a greater level of distruction. They expected earth to be more or less a dead world with limited, if any life. Rad levels can drop to 0, but with nothing growing prospects for humanity would have been very different


Please don't use that word. It's okay to think its a bad idea, or even a foolish/silly one, but that word really isn't appropriate.

The Tranquil Loungers was an experiment : Is having a ship full of the loungers a good idea?

However, they wouldn't be the ideal way to simulate potential problems on a generation ship. A computer, no matter how advanced it is, can only simulate circumstances its programmed to do so, and is limited to the imagination of the programmer. When you're trying to model something beyond the scope of experience, where do you begin? There are all sorts of factors that the potential programmer would not have known to simulate, simply because the thought never occured to them.

There's a reason why we still do animal testing, and other practical experiments today because a computer model, no matter how good or advanced it is can never include all of the variables. There are some things you can only learn with practical testing.

that line of thinking doesnt matter.. if theyre planning on being there 200 years outside of a vault theyre exposed to everything already, so it kind of makes the case of "if they can be there 200 years, why not just stay?" especially if they were anticipating a worse outcome, why would your plans be contingent on that long of a period of exposure to a hostile gene-bending environment? it just doesnt gel



cant promise i wont use it again as its part of my vocab, but i will try to be mindful.


the vault experiments were experiments as well, so i would say it is just as good of an idea as a ship full of 12 men 12 women and a panther.
tranquility loungers are also not contigent on there being a nuclear war to test.. even if experimental, that could have been done outside of a vault environment instead of spening billions for an underground room and hope a war breaks out to test it. thats really the biggest thing.. lets say these experiments arent questionable at best.. most of them dont need a nuclear war to happen to initiate testing.. yet, lets put all of our chips on them working as we plan after a nuclear war breaks out, so that way we cant even modify our test parameters and test the changes that were made if results dont yeild what we need them to, i mean.. what if they all failed miserably? most scientists would go back and change some stuff and try again, so that way there is a solution.. the best youre gonna get with these type of experiments is the raw data.. and if the raw data says "fail" then all is sunk because you cant go back and start the experiment over after making changes..


the same could be said for potential probelms presented to a human crew. sure humans can adapt logic to fit a situation.. but so can AI, by definition.


animal testing is neither here nor there. but i would say the human spirit is a potential variable that trumps pre-defined computer parameters (but i dont think a pre-pragrammed computer would be the way to go, rahter again, AI-can make all the decisions people can and isnt as weak physically)... think about it... 200 years in a vault.. you can't be certain that an overseer candidate about 3 gernations in is even gonna sign up and go along with the program that the enclave has put in place, its a highly fallable experiment model across the board. theres your whole whole multi-billion dollar 200 year vault experiment down the tubes..

The original enclave plan had them sitting in their vault-like shelter in the oil rig, free from nuclear nastyness.


The Penny arcade strips do have to be seen as they were intended, a bit of humour

In the Enclave's mind, the Nuclear War wasn't a "Maybe", it was a "Certainty". Either the "Reds", or the US (Perhaps the Enclave themselves - the guy giving the order to launch would probably be a member) were going to press the button. War had raged between the US and China for some time, Europe had just finished a major conflict with the middle east, and was now bickering amoungst itself. Resoruces were becoming more and more scarce. The Enclave was "Sure" this was going to happen, they merely didn't know the date.


But an AI is not a human. How an AI would survive is immaterial - It would have to be programed to "act" human, and again is limited by its programmers - What makes a human "human" after all? A key part of the tests is also human interaction, you'd need many AI - What AI's have been depicted in the fallout world are based in very large computer cores (or with one exception, an incredibly advanced experimental cybernetic brain)

still doesnt speak to the vast amount of time and resources wasted on experiments that arent very scientific to begin with.. moreso proves that if they had a plan knowing they could hold up in a ship for 200 years, then mostlikely the citizens who paid for vault addmittance couldas well, and be just as fit as the enclave.



fine
Vault 27
Vault 34
Vault 36
vault 53
vault 55
vault 56
vault 68
vault 69
vault 70

These vaults (F bible 0 and F2 only) had little or no scientific value partaining to space flight conditions. it would be a huge stretch to justify spending billions dollars and scacre resources on them, because they wouldnt yield anything useful.





so lets waste those preccious few remaining resources and time by building vaults that, for the most part, won't even have any positive bennefits working towards a goal of fleeing the planet.... thats a way better call than leaving the vaults as intended and having more people survive and re-populating the earth. /sarcasm



AI wouldnt have to act human-i am not talking about AI as vault condition people simulators...
the whole reason i introduced AI to this conversation is because it would take humans out of the equation during travel-when they are going to be confined on proposed space ship. steer a ship, scan for hospitibal living conditions, maintain stasis and ship functions.. thats all theyd need to know how to do. why AI would be better than a computer for this is its adaptability for changing scenarios. in short, they could have bypassed the experiments all together by deciding to use AI to run everyting while people were in stasis (which again could have been tested well before/instead of building vaults.)

but even if that doesnt jive with you:
the enclave wouldnt even need to test how people react to each other when confined in small spaces for long periods of time because, the enclave themselves by default were confined in a small space for long periods of time (possibly 200 years right?) furthermore, they (not john q public) would be the ones on the space ship. they would have a military protocol that would do away with anyone not getting with the program. there wouldnt be a need to see how citizen A felt about being fed only thin watery gruel for sustinance.. it would be "you dont like the food recruit?" *jettison into space* .

and all of this is contigent on events that never actually occoured in fallout, other than a game that didnt get made.
i doubt highly that when F2 was made this was the plan. just like when F1 was made the experiments themselves werent part of the plan.

First off, bear in mind that the \"Key point of failure\" wasn\'t the only test going on in any given vault

Vault 27 - Populated to Double Capacity
How many people can safely be put on this ship? At what point is Too many, too many? How much personal space is a person going to need? How will people cope with this limited personal space? At some point in the future people on that ship are going to have children, at what level is zero-population-growth going to have to be a neccessity. How will society cope having to stretch its food to 50% of a normal amount?

Vault 34 - Overstocked with weaponry and no lock
Will the "Right to bear arms" have to be suspended, or can people be trusted to be sensible with weaponry? With the Enclave\'s goal of trying to preserve the American way of life and quite possibly having a few more conservative voices than the average american population, this may have been seen as an important question to ask

Vault 36 - Gruel is the only food available
You can't see a point in this? Try eating something bland, the same thing, every day for a month, no variety in your diet at all. Come back to me with the results.

vault 53 - Equipment breaks down at a rapid pace
Again, this is a gimmie. The vault is literaly falling to bits around them - Something that has a very good chance of happening on a generation ship, be it due to old age and limited spare parts, or due to an ecounter with a comet or asteroid. The people in this vault live in a high stress environment all the time.


vault 55 - No Entertainment
Try living in a room with no entertainment, no internet connection. No video games, DVDs or movies. Come back to me after a month and tell me how you\'re doing.

vault 56 - No Entertainment, except from one particularly bad actor
See above.

vault 68 and 69 - 1 person of one gender, 999 of the other
Human society as we know it is generaly about 1:1 with the genders... Is this the best possible ratio for a generation ship? Would 999 Women and 1 "Sperm Machine" actually do better? How would life be different with a matirachy? How would a large group of men cope with limited opportunites to consort with the opposite six?


vault 70 - Mormons and Clothes Machines break after 6 months.
Forgive me if I'm a little rusty on my Mormon Knowledge, but I understand they're a very moral people and probably would have a problem with people running around in the buff. How is a mighly moral group of people going to deal with such a situation?



As far as anyone outside of the Enclave was concerned, thats exactly what the vaults were supposed to do.
As far as the Enclave was concerned, the people in the vaults didn't count - They weren't the "Right sort" of people anyway (if they were, they and their families would be in the Enclave!). The enclave is not the salvation army - they don't care about the population as a whole, they only care about their own backsides.


And there were/would be experiments to test that hypothesis to see if it would be the best way of doing things...

I know its not fallout, but putting an AI in charge isnt always a road to success... Sometimes the AI gets a "mind of its own"
http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Deus


The Enclave vault had the best of everything and would not face every situation that could be done in the vaults. They weren\'t just the military, they included a lot of civilians as well. You don't think the "Leaders of the Free World" would willingly just eat gruel, right?


Play FO2, and talk to President Richardson. Ask him yourself.


There was also intended to be a file on the Vault 13 computer explaining the Vault Behavioural Project.

to be continuted tomorrow

you dont need to spend billions of dollars building a vault to figure that out. you need a calculator and a nutritionist. pwople have survived through less than ideal personal space issues, but that wouldnt even be the practical part of the experiment.. only the rations, really as youre not losing ship space- youd have to over book your enclave escape ship to begin with.. and if the enclave dont care about other people, guess what would ahppen in that event.

the right to bear arms is entirely different than uncontrolled access to firearms
but lets keep in mind that its enlclave aboard the ship, not citzens with the right to bear arms. even if there were a few its not far fetched that martial law (which isnt considered unconstitutional) would be in effect regarding any armory anomalies. at any rate that logic makes it like the enclave actually cares about rights and that civilians would be leaving the planet with them.. not really.

try starving sometime and tell me if you wouldnt eat even the most repugnant loking bland food if its all that was available. does not justify the time and resources. also, i was in the military, i did that for 2 months.
you do not need to subject someone to living ina vault in order to boost their understanding of survival critical repairs. most astronauts are already tested similarly without the need of being locked in a vault. ironic though that their control vault couldnt repair their water chip, innint?

i used to live in a school house in missouri that had no electricity or indoor water.. yet, i managed to keep myself entertained.. Also, i was in the military where we had none of those things at our disposal. again, building a vault that costs billions and uses already scarce resources, just to see if people are too boring to entertain themselves has little or no scientific value..


we do have prisons already, so we know how people would cope sixually.
these scenarios are complete end of spectrum cases that really dont have a practical aspect about them. it would be more useful to sepnd the time exploring artificial and in-vitro repopulation, rather than an experimant that seems like it was cooked up by a couple people passinga bong around
one-they should grow up.. the apocalypse came and god ddint take them to heaven. two-what does that have to do with science? heres you're results "they woudlnt like having no clothes" case closed. i mean, really.. clothing isnt a life-or-death-need unless youre in extreme weather conditions, in which case a vault jumpsuit probably wont help much.

which is exactly why they wouldnt care about half of this superficial "what would happen if you got bored" crap. you do it because youre enclave, following orders is part of the deal in exchange for being alive still.

my point is that most of this experimentation isnt even needed..
and the inority of what might be needed could be done in any pre- existing building during the years it took to build the vaults

by choice no. for survival, yes.. but thats why youd take provisions with you! Any space ship that the enclave had planned on taking witht hem would presumabley have been built pre-war, so all the dimensions for crew capacity, food stores and other items is a known. take what yo need and can fit.
also, testing on other peoples reactions to eating nothing but gruel doesnt put a steak in your mouth either. what did the enclave eat during their stay on the tanker? if they didnt want the rads, probably the same kind of stuff that they would take on their trip across the galaxy.

as for asking pres richardson:
the colonization of annother planet.. THAT wasnt thought of during fallout 2... not the vault experiments.. of course the vault exdperimants were introduced in fallout 2 it was the enclave back story. i mean that during fallout one, the enclave had not been thought of. during fallout two, the enclave going into space wasnt part of the plan. see?

Whoa this is ironic. Kickstand we've had similar debates such as this one about the aliens in Mothership Zeta, and strangely enough you supported that. So... you're willing to accept aliens abducting people and performing experiments on them for no given reason, but you're faulting Black Isle for having the Enclave (possibly) initially have no reasons behind their vault experiments?

not quite, youre comparing apples and oranges.

the enclaves goals and motives are clear and i am saying their experiments arent an "ends justify the means" sort of thing.
theyre spending billions of dollars (for each vault) and resources that are already short to do testing that will have no realistic value for either re-populating the earth or an extended space trip on the way to colonize a new planet all the while using the american citizens (the only ones that had a true chance of survival and remianing somehat pure) that comprize the "american way of life" they suggest they are trying to save. thier experiments dont help their cause in any significant way, so whats the point?

We dont know what the aleins motives are, so i cannot say with any certainty if their experiments are justifiable and viable or not. i can only speculate on what they are about, they could very well be pointless experiments.... but there is no where near the background info on them in the fallout universe as there is for the enclave, most certainly no info that points directly to their experimentation being a waste of time, counter productive or conflicting of their supposed goals as with the enclave experiments.


can you see the difference between the two?

I don't see how; neither experiment had a logical explanation during their original appearance. Though we'll probably never see the aliens again because the DLC implied that they were one shot antagonists, and the negative reception MZ received will likely be the final nail in that coffin.



I fail to see the problem with the Enclave using the vaults as a social experiment for space travel. They didn't know what scenarios could happen, so they tested out as many as they possibly could. It's never a waste of money and resources to ensure that things will go as planned. The Enclave is first and foremost a political organization, and politicians generally do spend money on what may seem like pointless and draining ventures to the rest of us. Politics isn't as easy as "So does this make sense?" Politicians have to think fifty moves ahead, and do what they feel is best. Political science isn't really rocket science. Sorry I just had to include that really bad joke in there somewhere.

Either way it's inconsequential if it doesn't make sense to us because it probably made sense to the Enclave when they first came up with the plan. Was it a good plan? That's another story; just because the guys who came up with it were politicians who could think ahead doesn't mean they were necessarily right. The plan makes perfect sense if you look at it like a politician operating on a paranoid cold war-type mindset, however. There was absolutely nothing rational about American politics during the Cold War which is often recognized today when we look back on it. We regard McCarthyism as a terrible mistake now, but back then it seemed sensible because we were irrationally afraid of communism. You are ultimately a product of your era and your circumstances. What doesn't make sense to you can make perfect sense to someone else.