but thats useless for archers who want to be a decent distance away or for someone rping someone who would do that e.g. an evil assassin would exactly give away his posistion by yelling at people, but this back and forth of ideas is good

Better think before you shoot then. Adds more depth than assuming your character is psychic and can determine if someone is a friend or foe just by looking at them.

I don't see any good reason why in a game like this an archer should just know how an npc will react to seeing them.

I actually like the fact that Oblivion didn't have enemy markers.

Are you serious? Vampires had distorted faces, Necromancers wore black robes, pretty much anyone dressed in light armour in the wilderness was a Bandit, while friendly NPCs were dressed in town clothes. It was painfully obvious in Oblivion who was friend or foe. So much so that I created a mod to mix things up a bit. If you couldn't tell who was who in Oblivion, then you just weren't paying attention.

so that the archer can have a plan of attack instead of killing friendlys and having to reload a save

The plan of attack should involve figuring out whether or not someone is hostile or not, rather than just opening fire at first sight.

but you wouldnt fire at first sight youd cast the spell/ use the enchanted equipment that gave you the means to determine friend from foe, otherwise youd have to get pretty close to tell

How do you "figure out" if someone is hostile without blowing your cover? If you're in a cave or out in the wilderness, it's not unheard of to run across non-hostile NPCs, and there is no way to figure out whether someone is hostile or not without letting them see you.

I very rarely had a problem telling someone's hostility from a distance in Oblivion. If you're an archer you can never be so far away that you can't watch someone's behaviour for awhile, or see how they're dressed. If you're shooting from that far off, you'll probably miss your target anyway. I really wouldn't want the game dumbed down so much that I wouldn't have to think about my actions before I attack. That's how battles work. Do you think that NATO soldiers in Afghanistan can simply walk into a village and know instinctively who's an enemy and who isn't? You need to use your head in those situations, and your powers of observation.

I didn't like the all knowing compass/HUD. It didn't seem to fit into the game.

I don't think it's dumbing the game down by allowing people to be tactical and to assess who's a foe before a battle and sure it was pretty easy ro determine enemies in OB but that doesnt mean it will be in SR and this isn't Afghanistan it's a magical world with all kinds of spells I don't see why there couldn't be one to show agressive/hostile beings but yeah I get what your saying about not knowing making you think and observe but I just feel this spell would be useful for certain playstyles and it wouldnt restrict players like you who like to observe from doing so but would open up
options for stealth players, even though I know beth are very unlikely to implement it

You observe their behaviour and how they're dressed. If they're strutting around an area with their weapons drawn as if ready for a fight, that's a pretty good indication that they're hostile. Or if they're dressed like a Bandit, chances are they one. If it's not readily obvious whether they're hostile or not, and most of the time in these games it is, then you shouldn't be opening fire until you know for certain. Which means exposing yourself and probably engaging in melee combat. Who says that you have to be able to get in a sneak attack with every enemy you come across? There'll be plenty of opportunities where you'll know for certain, there's nothing wrong with having some doubts now and then. It would make the game more interesting frankly.

No.

Sorry, but if the game is going to hold my hand that much, I wouldn't want to play it. I removed all that crap from my Fallout game, so I certainly wouldn't want to see it in Skyrim as well. You may as well have an auto-play option that lets the game play itself for you, and you never have to stop and think about what you're doing.

Ok so an optional spell that you use at your perogative is less hand holding than a compass which tells you where enemies are as others have suggested, i'm just saying people could use it if they felt they needed it were as people like you who feel it would be too handholding could leave it, I just feel it would be a valuable spell for a lot of playstyles

i would love a potion for my stealth character that increases the range of his hearing....he comes across a camp with 3-4 people in it...uses the potion from a distance (maybe 100m), and is able to hear their conversation and get an idea of whether they are friend or foe. of course, this wouldn't make sense in a city, but it would be a cool potion imo for exploring.

I wasnt complaining, just stating that sometimes you couldnt tell all vampires in oblivion were vampires they didnt look like vampires all the time and I play my games dark, very dark for the the lighting effects, and all necromancers did not wear black robes with skulls on the front like some weird biker gang, because sometimes they were out to trick you and thats cool if it was not just advantageous to them lol,... I loved the game and will bow before your most obvious ability to read the enemy better then me,... :foodndrink:

I have never seen hostiles take out their weapon in Oblivion or Morrowind, if they weren't first alerted to my presense. Hostiles also have the same armor/clothing that non-hostiles can have. The only thing that differs between a hostile and non-hostile is that they have a low enough disposition toward you, and have a high enough aggression value to make them initiate combat (neither of which are made apparent to you, the player).. that's it. If either of those isn't true, they won't initiate a fight with you.


That's kinda how you play a stealthy character. What you lack in armor, you make up for in sneak+poison damage. If the game's not going to let a stealth character use stealth to their advantage, it's discouraging that play type.

This. Very well put!

Well that's certainly not true, at least for Oblivion. All hostiles in the game had an aggro radius where they'd pull out their weapons and get ready for a fight. That didn't mean though they knew exactly where I was, just that they could sense my presence nearby. The same thing happens with their dialogue, with them saying things "Where are you?" or "Damn rats, always scurrying around in the dark." or "I got to lay off of the ale, I'm starting to see things." If you heard anyone saying those things, then you knew right away they were hostile, and that they knew you were nearby but didn't know exactly where. And all these things would happen well before you were outside archery range.



In the default game, I almost always knew exactly that if I saw someone up ahead wearing light armour that they were a Bandit. I even had to create my own mod to add the benefit of the doubt to my game.



Again, that's not true. Their behaviour is different, as is their dialogue and usually the way they are dressed. If you've never noticed those things, then obviously you weren't paying attention.



That doesn't mean that each and every battle ends up in you getting in a sneak attack. The opportunities where you know for certain whether the character is hostile or not are frequent enough that you don't always have to open fire on first sight. It makes the game much more interesting if you have to examine your opponent first and determine whether they're an enemy or not. And sometimes you may get it wrong. That's just a normal part of combat.

I entered a bandit-occupied cave in Oblivion last week. From the ledges overhead, I heard voices saying things like "Who's there?" Up ahead, I see a lean figure standing in the darkness. I draw my bow and take him out. He wasn't a bandit. Oops.

I like being able to make mistakes and to be surprised. I would rather not have enemy markers.

I do wonder if things like this could be worked around with perks, an enemy detection perk, a fast travel perk, a quest compass perk, it could solve lots of these divisive issues. :flamethrower:

Enemy markers, what enemy markers? I never had any enemy markers when I played (for the best I think).

Well that's the whole point of this thread. The OP seems to think they were overlooked in Oblivion, and that they should be included in Skyrim like they were in Fallout 3.