I plan on modding attributes out of Oblivion.

I don't see why people are SO against this system that they haven't even tried out yet and haven't seen how it works, nor do they fully know how it will work, to the point that they're already planning to mod it out and go back to the way things were. Did attributes really matter so much that you're unwilling to go on without them? I didn't realize they were such a make-or-break situation for some people.

This. Don't be so conservative, guys.

Right, and Skills are less of a statistics than Attributes? ah so in real life I can measure my Sword mastery and archery skills? or how well I can sneak and cast spells is that it? mmk heres a heads up since people keep focusing on the "numbers" and "statistics" bit.

Its a game, your roleplaying, doesn't effect the character, as it stands you can pretend your wood elf is strong as an Ox, but the -game- isn't going to magically recognize this, your character is in the -game- and he/she/it abides by the -games- rules, "thinking" something does not translate utterly into the game, What point are your actions and behaviors if the game is still going to "immersion break" your character out of context when the character makes an eloquent response of question during the game outside of your control eh? your characters strenghts and weaknesses need to be detailed to you, this isnt 2022 where the game has seamless organic increases and decreases and everything you do matters as well as being able to tell at a glance what the character is capable of from their muscular or lean build, and I don't see how a steroid injection that is perk tech tree where the character suddenly is able to preform a task out of the blue is any more organic than Attributes.

Roleplaying is incredibly closely tied to tabletop game mechanics in people's heads.

@velorien but we have played the game without attributes, its called every rpg that has the bland health magic and stamina stats. and I hated it. I went from fable to elderscrolls I don't want to go backwards now, I left the other for a reason.

Yes. And strength is subjective. The idea that someone is strong is an opinion.

I think that is severely undercrediting Bethesda.

Yes. And strength is subjective. The idea that someone is strong is an opinion. That opinion is often based on what people do and what they are capable of. Removing attributes is a move toward reality. Removing skill levels and overall level would be a move to reality as well, but we aren't there yet from a technology level, so we still need to have some type of in-game system to measure abilities and to give improvement, but it is not necessary for roleplaying and it is not realistic and I don't see why people resist it.

I think that is severely undercrediting Bethesda.

Strength is absolutely objective. How much can you lift, how much force can you apply? This defines the sheer force damage of any attack, your carry weight, etc. There is nothing subjective about this. Attributes are a reflection of reality in the context of a particular person. Person A can lift this much, Person B can lift that much. Without the distinction and the limitation, you are not playing a unique character.

I think some people are missing the entire point of attributes to the roleplaying player. Roleplayer's, in my experience, do not necessarily rely on a number to define a particular attribute of their character, as in if Intelligence for example is low then that automatically means the character is near [censored], but instead use that number to represent their characters intelligence, and the amount of dedication that that character put into their 'education'. As in, a character could have low intelligence but that doesn't mean they're stupid. The whole Logic vs Intuition, Street Smarts vs Book Smarts, etc etc thing.

For instance, lets say I want to create an Altmer Sorcerer that's ~1000 years old. I want to represent this by having a massive magical capabilities and the intelligence that such a character would have garnered over this 1000 year existence. So, I train my magical skills up to their maximum heights and in turn I raise my intelligence to its limits. This is used as in-game proof of this characters 1000 year dedication to sorcery. Sure the roleplayer could just sit there and imagine all of this while we muck around shallow gameplay but I think many roleplayers (or at least me anyway) would rather have the depth of character creation (which spans beyond your initial race/class/birthsign selections btw) than just sit there and imagine it all.

Afterall, thats why a gamer such as myself (I consider myself a fairly hardcoe roleplayer) actually plays a game. If I wanted to just imagine things I would just sit in my bed and the possibilities would be limitless. In fact, I do do this and I can say that its 10x better to actually see these fantasies realized in something I can sit back and look at with my brain turned off. Indeed, its a similar sensation with Book-to-Film adaptions. If the film adaption is good, or at least aligns fairly well with how the reader originally imagined whatever the book described, then the enjoyment tends to be increased by a substantial amount.

Now, roleplaying aside, attributes are/were a massively integral part of actual gameplay, and if Bethesda took the time to flesh out the system and work out the kinks, the system would have ridden on the massive amount of potential that it still has. Fallout 3 is evidence enough of the direction I would have rather seen Beth take, though much deeper, naturally. But instead, they took the lazy developing route and just removed it and used poor excuses to save themselves heat.

And whats worse, I don't actually remember attributes ever being called a problem. By anybody. Yes, there were the obvious pleas to fixing the attribute system as well as fleshing it out to have more of an impact on gameplay, but I never, ever, saw anyone say that the system should just get scrapped for a stupid "Level up 10 skills and you can raise one of three stats that have likely have the same amount of impact as the old attributes did!"

Yes, the attribute system of the past games could all be technically combined into 3 stats, but the at least the old system has legitimate room to be fleshed out into something really special. Now, with only Health/Magicka/Fatigue any attempts to make them mean anything more than what their names mean would make no sense whatsoever. Health for instance does not always translate into a decent amount of strength. Magicka does not mean the character has to have a high intelligence or willpower (it is possible for a mage to be incredibly stupid/weak of mind). Fatigue/Stamina does not mean one is fast or agile.

And then theres the fact that Personality is virtually not covered in this system either, unless it is being folded into the Speechcraft skill, at which point its replaced by perks, which is going to prove to be massively stupid and/or pointless.

I'm fine with Skyrim system at the moment. My bet on the first mod would be compass markers and fast travel remover.
OR something with boobz.

It can be fairly subjective. Do you base strength on bench press, squat, dead lift, curls, some combination of them? You may look at a powerlifter and say he has a strength of 90, while somebody else may say he has a strength of 95.

i don't know why people are flipping out before they even see or try the system in place. are you guys telling me you'd prefer something like Oblivion's sh*tty leveling system? what i've heard of this new method makes way more sense to me.

i don't know why people are flipping out before they even see or try the system in place. are you guys telling me you'd prefer something like Oblivion's sh*tty leveling system? what i've heard of this new method makes way more sense to me.

It can be fairly subjective. Do you base strength on bench press, squat, dead lift, curls, some combination of them? You may look at a powerlifter and say he has a strength of 90, while somebody else may say he has a strength of 95.

I'm betting this is going to be one of the first mods after the creation kit is released.

Yeah, and this makes me happy, seeing how of the four first mods on TESNexus for Oblivion, fast travel removal and compass icons were two of them :intergalactic:

i don't know why people are flipping out before they even see or try the system in place. are you guys telling me you'd prefer something like Oblivion's sh*tty leveling system? what i've heard of this new method makes way more sense to me.

:rofl:

Yeah - that's why powerlifting competititions rely on judges instead of arbitrary numbers.

Strength is absolutely objective. How much can you lift, how much force can you apply? This defines the sheer force damage of any attack, your carry weight, etc. There is nothing subjective about this. Attributes are a reflection of reality in the context of a particular person. Person A can lift this much, Person B can lift that much. Without the distinction and the limitation, you are not playing a unique character.

and you know that we (or I atleast) have already explained in detail several times it doesn't matter if we have never played the system before, for me they have already elimenated what I NEED to role play, what I need has explicity been confirmed as out. and thats a variety in stats, with out that I don't role play the way I enjoy the game. just telling me or any one else to role play a different way is like telling a kid who is allegetic to peanuts to just eat it any ways even if its causes discomfort.

Imposing limitations on yourself is fine, but it's not what a role playing game should be shooting for. If you are playing a weak character, but the game imposes no limitations on carry weight and hit damage, you aren't actually a weak character. You have a strong character with some sort of mental problems who refuses to use his full potential.

You want variety in stats? Skills just do that.

What's the difference between roleplaying somebody who's strong and somebody who's good with a sword?


That character would have the same mental problem than the one that haven't raised his strength at level up...