And I like play the game naked.

BGS can't make the perfect game for everybody.
Deal with it.

When did I ever say I do not accept it? Or anything even remotely close to that? I said in an early post that I simply do not understand.


But recent arguments are trying to tell me that strength is objective, which is just incorrect.

Is your physical form best described by a series of characteristics that can be reasonably transformed into a series of values that, while not perfect, can reasonably describe you?

Your IQ?
Your weight?
How much you can carry?
How fast/far you can run before you poop out?

Or are you better represented by the health bar that sits in your peripheral vision or the collection of perks you gained down at your local perk dispenser? Maybe an artificial sprint button with a cool down timer?

Simple fact, Velorian, is that attributes are the best possible way to put real-world characteristics into a simulated humanoid in a game type environment. Everything BGS has stated they have in this area is a step backwards. TES character development is devolving, not moving forward.

I disagree that "effectively" takes out attributes. It just makes their buildup more realistic. IMO that would be an excellent attributes system. Also, I would prefer that attributes not even be directly viewable in the menu. That you would have to see a "healer" or be a certain level in restoration in order to view attributes.

This post is just the epitome of close-mindedness. You can have your preference and that's fine. I am not now, nor have I ever said that you can't have that preference, but give me a break. That post is too biased to even respond to.

Why would be that better?
How would an IQ number gotten from a test tell you more how smart you are, than a collection of skills?
How would a speed attribute would tell you better how fast you are, than your actual sprinting speed?
How would a strenght attribute tell you better how strong you are, than your weapon skill and carry weight capacity?

They're equal really... a different approach to the same end, to describe your character.

EDIT:

Except this is what we have, without the net effect on other skills.

You raise a skill, that raises an attribute that governs that skill, so you raise your skill even more.

we are dealing with it Bukee, we are planing on making a mod and thats what I meant by deal with it. you got what you wanted so don't try and stir the pot when you have nothing to lose over any of this.



I get that you say that you don't understand but when ever some one explains why it matters to them you argue with them with why it doesn't work for you. it shouldn't matter if it doesn't work for you because you are getting something that you claim you want. it doesn't work for me and others and I have given my reasons several times and we reach the same junction of you saying it works fine for you and me telling you, i am not you and that I can't enjoy the game as much when I role play if there are no physical states to keep my similar characters seperate. even if it is by a degree of 5 or 10 points in strength, thats how I like to play and should not be punished or critsized for it and its become popular to thomp any one who likes any thing that isn't in any more on these forums.

Wow. Just....... wow.

No wonder you haven't been able to appreciate what's being discussed on these threads.

Actually, you got it backwards.

I'm really getting sick of people accusing me of not accepting others' preference or attacking people or whatever. Go back and read my posts in this thread. I've been nothing but respectful. I made a post that stated that I did not understand the preference. It was not malicious or angry or offensive, I was simply stating that I do not understand.

Is no one capable of having a friendly debate anymore without assuming it's a flamefest or something? I post here to help others understand my point of view, and I was under the impression that others are here posting to help me, and others, understand their point of view, which was the entire reason I posted in the first place. Instead, I get a bunch of people asking why I can't just accept it?

I accepted it on Day 1, at the very beginning. I feel like I type this every post I make, but I'm not saying you can't have your preference or that I do not accept that you have a different preference. I'm just explaining my own and why I have the preference I do, and that's why you should be posting to.

If you're going to get offended by a friendly debate, then please don't take part in it.

Yet you do with nothing but blindly attack with ad hominem?

Edit: unnecessary provocation removed.

Oooh Ooh pick mee Pick me!


Nothing! :teehee: because its all in my head! infact it wouldnt even matter in game because its in my head! isnt that what roleplay (or one of the concepts) about?


seriously, THIS IS NOT ABOUT BETHESDA SYSTEM VS ATTRIBUTES ANYMORE, you made your point, you don't like attributes good, excellent, more power to you :intergalactic: however, there are people who do and can see and would like a system better than what prior games offered in Attributes, plain and simple, this isnt even a discussion its an argument. we get it, no ones trying to change your view.

sorry no. I did not mean to lump you in with the thomping part, it was a after note. I am trying to adress as many people with one post each time so that I don't have to respond to every singe adress which just gives people who disagree but can't discredit my points an excuse to just say "o your just trolling to get you post count up" me and you have had a plenty o civil discussions about this, open forum and in PM. again I am sorry to sugest you weren't being civil.

PS to every one. I don't get offended by debate (rarely atleast and if then I don't respond to those users any more) I really just get into it. if any thing I enjoy it, which is why I come on to these forums is because I drive my family and friends nuts if I debate with them.

EDIT: bukee, you are the first person I have seen bring that up on this current thread. its whats called a distraction. the topic is suposed to be about a mod for attributes and not the genre itself.

If everybody is so understanding, and accepting that this is just about different opinions, pray tell, why is everyone crying about streamlining, dumbing down and the death of RPGs in general?

I meant it was too biased to respond to with an actual explanation because I shouldn't need to. But if you don't understand why it's biased then I will explain.


IQ is not an accurate measurement of Intelligence. How much you can carry only shows how much you can carry. How fast or how far you can run before you poop out only measures how fast or far you can run before you poop out. It is not the equivalent of overall Intelligence, Strength, or Endurance in a human being (or elf or beast, in the case of TES.)
You then go on to compare the new system to game mechanics, despite the obvious fallacy that, while, in-game, you have a health bar in your peripheral vision, you also have a menu that pops up with numbers in your peripheral vision and pauses the entire world around you. It's an unfair argument. If you can't suspend your disbelief when it comes to health bars, then you shouldn't be able to suspend your disbelief with menus and numbered statistics.


And then this? It's "the best possible way?" Not only have you not even seen how the new system works in action, but you are certainly not capable of knowing all possible methods of putting real-world characteristics into a simulation. Saying one way is the best without trying a new way and without knowing all possible ways is the definition of close-mindedness.

ragers gonna rage

there is no way to make less attributes work like they did with more unless you make unrelated characteristics meddle with each other. the fact that they say that the three macro attributes do what the 8 did before is all the evidence neccesary that features that defined thieves from dungeon looting warriors are now blended and there won't be that distinction any longer. and we have seen it before, I already said that. fable had almost the same set up, you gained experience to increase them in a different way but we are not discussing how we increase the three attributes but how they define characters and I was inspired by the depth of character creation that morrowind offered in comparison to what fable offered. I am not saying that I hate fabel, and neither have I ever said I will hate SK in general, but I hate the system in fable and I by extention know that I will not enjoy SK's.

You peeps are intentionally derailing these threads aren't you, its the fire starters that get this locked, if you don't care for attributes don't post :confused:

This thread was pretty pointless anyway, we already have another thread about the exact same thing.

I'm actually surprised this isn't locked yet...

Depending on how much is hardcoded, this may not be do-able.

No system can 100% accurately model human characteristics right now. But we do have means to make approximations. They are called attributes. You can have a system that models them, or you can not have them. You can have more in game than the 8 that TES used in the past. You can even leave out less realistic ones like Luck. There is any number of ways to do it. You could even use perk trees, smiley faces, prancing ponies... anything that enables one to differentiate character values between one character or another.



It should be obvious to all here that we are having a discussion based on the limited information that has been released. If TES actually has a more realistic attributes system in SR, as opposed to cutting most attributes out, as they have stated, then I would be happy to be called on it. Until then.... you are free to call me close-minded.

But, as I'm sure you don't need to be told, Skyrim is not Fable. Just because you've seen a similar system doesn't mean Skyrim will necessarily be the same exact thing. It's fine if you feel you won't like it, but I'd suggest at least trying to keep an open mind to the possibility that you will like it, even if it's 1%. If you go into it saying "I hate this" before you even experience it, then you don't even stand a chance of having a fun time with a system that you might have enjoyed otherwise.


What's derailed? The topic is still about the value of attributes being in the game or not. The OP said he/she was going to mod attributes in and so people are now discussing if attributes are worth being in the game or not. This isn't the "Pro-attributes People Discuss How You Like Attributes" thread. If the OP didn't intend to discuss the worth of attributes in Skyrim, then I certainly don't see what he/she was hoping to accomplish with this thread. It's not derailed into "attributes vs no attributes," because that's what it was to begin with.

they were in the game up to a certain point, so it depends on if they used their normal dev tools, which they always release, to change the attributes to what they are now. or if they hardcoded it, which I honestly not 100% what that means. but even then, some one determined enough and with coding experience could work around it. even so, I think its very likely that they just used their own tools and the only reason I can see attributes not being modable is if they did so with the intention to keep pro attribute people down and that is not like them. in fact some one else was saying that it might have been their intention all along for people to be able to mod them back in since most of the pro attributes people are also involved in the modding community and their target consumer they have made the change for is new players which would not be mod savy enough if the current attributes system was reversed and it was anti attributes people wanting to mod it out.

@velorien but you missed the part where I said that I don't hate either games, I just hate the sytem. I never said they'd be the exact same, only the 3 attributes part. there was not much role playing in fable to begin with (you know what I mean by that) so having just the 3 macro attributes was irrelevent in that game but in TES it is relevant.