Well, if you have a better way to explain it, please do.

Does anyone have a short concise answer to the topic title? And not just a link.

Akatosh is the God of Time. Alduin is the God of Time. Akatosh is Alduin in as much as the God of Time is the God of Time.

Time allows for there to be a 'then' from a 'now.' Even that is change. Even if no objects change in what we would recognize as a cause-effect, like how your sword-in-a-vault experiences no cause-effect changes, the sword can still be observed in discrete time-snapshots of then and now.
And even with cause-effect changes, such as the moisture on the sword, or the asteroid crashing into planets, then they would have no momentum and no cause and effect if there were no time to give them passage. If we were to take a hypothetical snapshot of a world at a specific time (or rather, if we were to eliminate time for a world), then the asteroids of that world could destroy nothing and move nowhere, and the moisture of that world could degrade nothing and collect nowhere.

As for time still having statis, sure. I called it a unity of a continuity. The unity is the unchanging, constant, static grounding of it all. The continuity is the shifting and flowing manifold of then's and now's.
It's the best of both worlds. Which interestingly gives me a new way to consider the enantiomorph...

It seems that Akaduin-El (made-up name for all three of the above together) IS time, and any conflict of interests that appears to exist between the three of them is just the complications of personifying a concept that is not concerned with the fate of mortals. Generally, Auriel wants things the way they used to be, Akatosh is the mover of the group, doing things in the present to prepare for Alduin, who wants to move on to the future (or at least continue the cycle, which is progress). Now I am not saying that these three are actually the past, the future, and the present, but I am saying that the actions taken by one god can appear to conflict to mortals, when in reality said actions are simply the result of concepts brushing past one another. It seems as though the avatars of gods (the walking, talking things that people like to worship) are a way for concepts to promote themselves in a way that is more fantastic and, debatably, more interesting than the actual world. It would make sense for different peoples to have different views of a god's actions. Some elves want to be free of the limits of the mortal plane, so they identify with the time before. The Nords, for the most part, are not okay with the world ending, so they dread the time to come. The Imperials aren't thinking of either of those things, so they enjoy the time they have.

Simplified (and leaves out the role of mortals), but I think its about right. Lore Gods correct me if I am wrong about something.

So yes, Alduin is Akatosh.

Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRhJSUEyCqI it's a good and relevant addition to the topic.

Alduin and Auriel are the same thing; two groups of people looking at the exact same entity in the same role. It's just how they feel about that role that differs.
Akatosh is a totally different perspective of that entity, not just a change in interpretation.


Not sure what you mean. "Time", as an understanding of the flow of events, is definitely cyclical in TES. Unless you discount MK's writings, I suppose.

And time IS change. Without change, time would be meaningless. In that "sword in a vault" example you used, with no change to the sword, the passage of time could not be measured, and there would be no distinction between one moment and the next.

@The Darkest Hours: Awesome. Pratchett is always a good and relevant addition to any discussion.

We shall see how things shake out in game.

This thread is not even addressing half the story.

People are saying Akatosh is Alduin is Auriel is Lorkhan and is Tiber Septim...

It's almost like one god is everything


Convoluted lore....

Akatosh IS Alduin is Auriel, and they have a relationship with Lorkhan you continuously fail to understand. And Tiber Septim is Lorkhan in a sense, just not directly and literally.

It has been strongly suggested that the world of TES is ultimately all varying degrees of subgradients of one schizophrenic God. That the complexity of everything just comes from the interplay of dualistic forces within the split mind of a single dreaming godhead.

While TES lore IS a bit convoluted, I think in your case you're just largely mistaking complexity and depth for convolution.

I do not fail to understand. You show know that...of all people.

The question is whether the theory is true?

We talk about duality as a principle in this universe but fail to see the contradiction of a deity with 4 to 5 aspects (Quintuplity).

We fail to question why other gods like Dibella, and Kynareth do not have identified mirror images like Aka/Lorkhan.

Each deity in the TES universe is supposed to oversee an aspects of existence like nature, beauty, mercy, Time...however we fail to question when a single deity is said to oversee Time, Governance, war, space...


One can understand a theory but that does not necessarily make that theory true

"Mirror images," or binary oppositions, are not something that absolutely has to exist. It is not a principal in Nirn, or on Earth, for that matter. Akatosh is not the opposite of Lorkhan, they are one long line with two clear poles and an indeterminable center ([akatosh--------lorkhan]: where does one end and the other begin?). Why must flowers and the wind have an opposite for the world to exist?

And yes, there is one god who is everything. The Godhead, the dreamer whose dream is AE, Aurbis, Nirn, Tamriel, etc. But he is so far above it all to really not matter in everyday theology. The reason Aka and Shor are so important, and appear all over the place, is because their conflict is what made mortal existence what it is. They are also an incredibly archetypal force in the real world as well, so its easy to relate things to them.

It's like people have never heard of different denominations worshipping the same god before.

Again, I think a lot of it has to do with the attachment people have with Akatosh. For a long time now, he was always the 'good guy.' The fact that he's now the Destroyer, it makes people uneasy. Yet, as I have said before, no one has a problem with Shor = Shezarr = Lorkhan.

Meh, I got over that whole "good gods are good" thing around the time Pelinal went around murdering my beloved Khajiits for no good reason.

Good to know the Nine Divines ain't so boring anymore, but.
On the other hand, Daedra? They're never boring.

He had a good reason, he thought they were a race of furries mer. That's enough of a reason as is!

:P

I'd have to say that's because it's easier to understand them as interpretations, while Alduin appears to be the opposite of Akatosh.

I also think people think they're (Akatosh and Alduin) the exact same god under a different name, and that Akatosh is an evil liar, rather than them being the same in a mythic multiple-personality disorder sense (as I've seen others put it).

They did look like Mer way back then. They changed, somehow.

He probably ran into a bunch of Ohmes and Ohmes-Raht. Hell, the nords thought the bretons were mer when they first encountered them.

They're all the same god from a different perspective.

He does love nirn. However, he is looking at the bigger picture. Get rid of these silly mortals ruining the planet and fix it all up anew.

Akatosh is very interesting, imo.

A thought: Perhaps Akatosh is linear time, while Alduin is cyclical. The Alessians and the Empire (all empires) naturally wanted to tame time: to write it up as histories, a list a rulers and so forth, all sanctioned by a domesticated version of the Dragon God, thereby 'inventing' time as a rational, linear and pro-Imperial process of causality. The more primitive Nords, on the other hand, see time as something more primal and dangerous.

Bingo. Auriel/Alduin/Akatosh are just the way that the various cultures view the over arching idea of "A Dragon God of Time" with all their own views and self interest wrapped up in them. I view this as being similar to how most cultures have some story about a massive flood happening long ago. Same basic idea, just through their own lens.

The elves want to escape their prison and so does their god (a bit of the King returning as the Rebel), non-Nord men want to see said empire, and by extension Mundus, continue on as is forever thus Akatosh a god of continued linear time and stasis (a bit of the former Rebel as the King) and the Nords have a fatalistic/destructive streak (like their real world counter parts) thus the cyclical nature of Alduin.

In a sense, this just brings us back to the question: to what extent to these beliefs reflect/create reality? I am beginning to agree with those who see the end of the Septims as a Very Bad Thing.

There is one thing I deliberately omitted from my previous post: the nature of 'Elven Time'. I suppose one should say 'static' or 'backwards'. If the 'linear' option is no longer valid, what is the relationship between the other two? This seems to be the crux- and I suppose there won't be a satisfying answer until we have Skyrim in our febrile hands.

While i agree, It is unlikely that Auri El manifests on Nirn as a dragon, as dragons have trouble with bows and shields.

Edit: meaningless

About Alduin influence on imperial view on Akatosh...

Is there any lore on Imperial view on Alduin? They used to deny any relation between Auriel and Akatosh, but what is their view on the World Eater? I would imagine they would disagree about Akatosh destroying the world.

Also, http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-varieties-faith-empire Scroll down to Y'ffre. I'd say the reason he can still use a bow and shield is because he's a god, so we shouldn't question it.