Do anyone think that Soul Trap is evil?

Trapping someone soul in a gem, no matter a bad guy or good guy, or even animals, then using it to recharge magical items.

I wonder where the enchantment recharger in the Mage Guild get their souls to recharge our items?

They kill people...?

Is eating the meat of animals evil? What about plants?

It really comes down to perspective and how (dis)respectful one is/is not towards the element being used.

M'aiq didn't seem to like the experience, at any rate.

If want to compare with eating, if we don't eat, we die, we must eat to live.

But enchantment is an option, not essential for living, it just make our weapon magical and powerful. We can survive without it.

So, eating animal meat or plant is not evil, we must eat, that is our nature.

I suppose, because are you tapping their soul, so they are still living in the soul gem (hell I guess) in which case it would be cruel...

I guess it's open to interpretation...

Yeah, it is cruel. You must kill someone, some animal, something...then trap their soul in a gem...their soul...you see...after that using their soul to recharge items, i see it is totally cruel and evil.

Funny that Necromancy is banned, but Soul Trap is not

Off-topic, but yesterday I made my first enchanted item in Oblivion (six years after playing it for the first time, hah) and I was taken by surprise by the fact that my item was successfully enchanted after the first go.

Then I saw they dumped Enchanting as a skill in Oblivion, LOL.

I don't see how it's evil to slay the thing that's trying to kill you and make better use of it than just leaving it to rot away.
I do favour soul trap because if anything - human or otherwise - is throwing bolts at me or trying to eat me, I do what I do to survive and if I have gems to fill, by all means I'll soul trap their behinds.
If however I was playing a more...kinder player, I'd stay away from it but only for story purposes.

You're talking about the body there, the physical form. What soul trapping does is capture the soul. All of Tamriel's life forms depart the physical world after death. Depending who they are and how they lived their lives their souls may depart for one of several locations. Soul trapping prevents that from happening.

So it is entirely possible to argue that soul trapping is wrong (I won't say "evil." I don't belive there is such a thing as "evil").

In my view there is a fundamental difference between sentient souls and creature souls.

For creatures (eg animals, monsters, pretty much anything that doesn't talk) the "soul" is just some form of life energy. Your not hurting anything by capturing those. So that's not evil at all.

For sentient NPCs (humans, elves, Dremora like golden saints or Markynaz, etc, it is much more questionable. Only my evil characters tend to do that. A good character wouldn't, even if the NPC was evil.

Since it is a single player game in a private world, I don’t hesitate to change things around to my liking – TES lore is subordinate to my purposes.

When it comes to this thread's topic, Buffy was taught at the Arcane University that ‘soul trap’ is a misnomer likely coined by those who mistrust magic. She learned that what is being captured in a ‘soul gem’ is simply the magicka surrendered by a dying being. As proof, her instructor summoned an already dead 'soulless' thing (skeleton) and captured its magicka.

When Buffy learned that some mages could recharge weapons from their own magicka, she naturally wanted to learn that ability. This is a totally logical desire that I imagine any mage who uses weapons (including staves) would strive for. Sadly, she learned that the specialization of ‘Recharger’ takes many years to learn and those called to it must forsake all other forms of spellcasting. Indeed, mages in her game that can recharge weapons do not cast other spells. Most of them are quite accomplished with alchemy and, naturally, the use of enchanted weaponry since they can recharge their own weapons in combat.

Clearly, my character and I dance to our own tune, using rules that may or may not follow lore or suit others. I believe that is one of the great things about single player role playing games. So, this is how we deal with the soul trap question. Your mileage may vary of course.

I second this explanation. This is what most of my characters adhere to. Paladin types do not soul trap as well as my one Redguard Mage who did not soul trap or use destruction.

I know players who use mods that allow them to simply cast their own magicka into a weapon to recharge it and that is another solution I suppose. I am simply addicted to the sweet song of Azura's Star however and love recycling the magic from dying foes.

If Soul Trapping is evil then Baa is headed straight for Hell. Last time I checked her stats she had captured 1421 of them and it’s too late to go back now. One thing she doesn’t do is use Black Soul Gems to capture people. That just seemed like the right way to go when the Black ones became available in her game. But she didn’t go through some long logic tree to decide that. Baa just follows her core beliefs and made the decision quickly and instinctively.

She doesn’t worry too much about things like that. If she’s in a dungeon and sneaks up on a Bandit, she doesn’t consider if she should shoot him in the head for a quick kill, or shoot him in the gut so he will know he was shot before he dies, Baa just shoots him and moves on.

"Souls" are definitely not really "souls." They're certainly not something that each person only has one of. If you acquire the Staff of Worms, you can reanimate NPCs. When those reanimated NPCs "die," their "souls" can be captured in Black Soul Gems, and you can do it over and over again.

From a RP stand point you could always treat soul gems like the Bosmer treat plants (Green Pact). It might be wrong to trap the souls yourself but it's alright to use gems that other people have filled. Oh and if you think soul gems are evil don't touch Varla & Welkynd stones. Soul Gems (even the black ones) are happy shiny rocks compared to them.

It all depends on what the Soul Trap really does. Bethesda is not very clear on whether it truly captures a creature's soul, or if it just captures some form of magicka that is released when the target dies. For another example, Detect Life detects skeletons and zombies, who are clearly not alive. So that spell must not be really detecting life.

If it does really trap souls, and then people destroy those souls to use for magical batteries, then I would say yes, that is utterly reprehensible. You are depriving that soul of the afterlife, be it Sovngarde, or the Dreamsleeve and rebirth. In some ways Bethesda seems to feel this way too. For example, they describe the sword Umbra as an "evil creation", and its sole enchantment is soul trap.

OTOH Bethesda makes soul trapping practically a necessity for everyone playing their games. So if that is what they feel, they expect nearly every player character to be evil. In Oblivion you could take your magic items to the Mages Guild and pay an insane amount for recharging. But you could count on your weapon running out of charges in the middle of a dungeon. Not to mention you need a soul gem just to enchant anything yourself. So not using soul gems means using only magic items you pick up. But even those must have been created by someone else using soul gems... In Skyrim using soul gems is the only way to recharge magic items at all. So Bethesda has moved to making it your only option for using magic weapons.

Another viewpoint is that the spell might only trap excess magicka. Or maybe some form of magicka that normally holds the soul to its body. This would not be depriving the soul of the hereafter, or affecting it in any way. This would be kind of like siphoning the gas out of a wrecked car.

For the longest time I avoided using soul trapping at all. Eventually I decided that it was my game, so I got to make up the rules. I went with the second option, and made a mod that changes the name soul trap to magicka trap, soul gems to magicka gems, etc... In time I made them nearly entirely obsolete by using a mod that recharges your weapons right from your magicka. I made that the standard for my fan fic as well, although it takes some skill to do so. Other people have to use magicka gems, which are likewise filled by mages transferring their own magicka into them, rather than killing people or animals and svcking out their energy. In my fan fic, soul trap does exactly what it says, traps a being's soul, and then destroys it utterly when making a magic item. This makes it the sole province of necromancers and other thoroughly vile types.

I am not English speaking people, i am a bit confuse, what is the different between soul and spirit? Some say soul, some say spirit, and some say spirit is some kind of ghost, and some say spirit is soul, and others say spirit is something else...

Just wonder....for example, Christian say Jesus is the The Holy Spirit or The Holy Ghost...or actually The Holy Soul...?

Anyway...in the game sense, there are two types of making enchantment
- using soul gem and the altar
- using sigil stone

And there are two types of enchantment
- permanent effect
- need re-charged

For not feeling good using enchanted items, i only use Sigil Stone permanent enchantment as far as i play. i don't know, it just me, i just can't Soul Trap anyone, even for role-playing. I feel the idea behind it is so dark...no matter if i play as a dark mage in any game, Soul Trap is far more evil than summoning demons or even Lucifer himself in my opinion. (lols)

As for detect Life, as i understand it, the spell detect anything that alive, so even it is a zombie, we cannot deny it is alive and have life right? If the zombie is dead, then the zombie will not move and hunting for brains...so the spell is right, it Detect Life even it is dead-life

Yes. No animal wants to be killed or eaten. Animals have the exact same right for a free life as humans do. If animals could speak, if they could voice their opinion on the matter, they would say "I don't want to be killed or eaten".

Now, there are degrees of this. Comparing a factory farmer who murders animals everyday to a native hunter who tracks a deer, kills it, and then does a ceremony for the animal's soul is not a fair comparison. The factory farmer is just doing a job. He doesn't care about what he's actually doing. The native hunter is surviving, and feels the pain of what the animal just went through, and makes an attempt to recify this, somehow.

The killing of animals in today's world is generally not survival. There are plenty of other options for protein nowadays. I basically will never buy the "animals were put here on Earth so we can kill them" philosophy. Now, an animal killing another animal is not evil. Wild animals have no conscience of right and wrong. For them, it is survival, if a kill is made.



No. Killing plants is not evil. Plants do not have a nervous system, and therefore cannot feel pain. Matter of fact, many plants specifically are designed to be eaten, such as berries and corn, so that their seeds will wind up spreading as the eater defecates or whatever.



So far as soul gems go, this makes a lot of sense. In this case, both the attacker and the attackee are equals. One is going to win the battle. It seems to me that there's the possibility (before battle ensues) that one of these 2 combatants knows what the outcome might be, and they non-verbally agree to the terms. You kill me? You're possibly going to get my soul...

Is this evil? Hmmm. In Earth terms, it seems more evil than it does in Tamriel terms. I dunno...I'll have to get back to this one. .

Soul and spirit are usually used interchangeably in English. Some people split hairs between them, and see the soul as being the more worldly, perhaps more negative, aspects of a person. In either case they represent the non-physical, immortal, essence of a being. Exactly what depends on who you ask, and what their religion and philosophy is. Since this is not something that can be scientifically measured, it is a major case of Your Mileage May Vary.



I can deny that the undead are alive and have life. The whole point behind zombies, skeletons, ghosts, etc... is that they are not alive. They are animate, but not living. There is definitely some magical force giving them animation. But it is not life. I will acknowledge that maybe I am splitting hairs myself here. But it seems that if a necromancer's magic gave life to a corpse to animate it, it would be like pouring gas into a car without a gas tank. It would just pour right back out again, since a corpse cannot sustain life. For example, imagine putting life into a skeleton. It cannot breathe, has no heart, and no blood to pump even if it did, etc... So wouldn't it just instantly die again?

The Oblivion Detect Life spell is detecting something in both the living and the undead. But not life. Their magicka perhaps? If so it is really a Detect Magicka spell. Or perhaps it detects a soul or spirit? Then it really should be a Detect Soul spell. Aside from all that, how come Detect Life does not show you every tree, every bush, every blade of grass, and everything else that is alive? It actually ignores most living things.

In any case, my point is that Bethesda does not really think many things through, and put accurate names on things. So just as the Detect Life spell is detecting something other than life, the Soul Trap may be trapping something other than souls. This is a single player game. It is your experience alone. So it is entirely your prerogative to decide how things work in it.

I disagree with Renee Gade III, plants also a living being, they procreate, have their own nervous system (they do react on something), they do feel pain (they just don't scream), they bleed (you cut them, their sap will go out like blood), they grow up and get older, they eat and drink in their own way, they dead when their time come,..in short they are living being. So, if saying eating animal is evil, eating plants is evil too. If you eat grains and seeds, you actually eating their babies. Vegetarians always demonized non-vegetarians as murderers, but they eat other living being too. eating is our nature, there is no wrong killing animal to eat them, what is wrong (in my religion perspective) is killing animal for nothing and abusing.

SubRosa, thanks for the explanation about spirit and soul. As about the zombie, they are the living dead right? lols In my opinion, Detect Life is actually Jedi Force Sense, but Bethesda just want another name for it. All Mysticism spells except Soul trap is actually Jedi powers.

Poor wording on my part, but I wasn't saying that it isn't possible to be wrong. Trapping someone's soul to deny them an afterlife isn't a good thing, but if you're taking the soul of someone who's destined for tamriel's version of hell (e.g. because they murdered a lot of people) then at least you get a better use out of it.
And depending on what you believe, a soul can 'rot away' within a person's body...either due to their actions or because they were cursed.


Eh, not really. I mean I can see is telekinesis as one as they can use the force to move things and heightened senses in detecting life, but telekinesis was a well known supernatural power for centuries so they haven't 'copied' anything there. All the spells are really, they're taking it from history on witchcraft and magicka so they're not copying anything star wars related. Detect life seems a faster alternative to dowsing or scrying but to detect life than the future.

Plants are living beings but do not have a nervous system. Show me evidence where this has been scientifically proven, Niza, the nervous system part. Plants contain living energy, but they're not the same as animals.

They react to stimuli, but cannot possibly feel pain. And like I said earlier, many plants are designed specifically to be eaten. If nobody ate these sorts of plants, it would actually be bad for them as species because they would not be able to spread and grow and thrive elsewhere.

I said I would get back to you on the soul gem part, so I am going to do so now. In Earth terms, yea, it's evil to use a soul gem. Two combatants may agree (nonverbally) to a battle, but once that battle is over, the soul should be allowed to go and rest or whatever. Taking that soul to use at our pleasure seems wrong, in a way, in my opinion.

I don't know how it works on Nirn. I know some souls go to Sovengarde (those who are Nords or are aligned with Nord beliefs) and I know other souls go elsewhere. Either way, it seems wrong. That being said, I [u[do[/u] have some characters who couldn't give two Septims about their wrongdoings. They may not harvest the souls themselves, but they know what they're going.

A "good" sort of character (one who is completely good) would maybe try to find a way to free this soul from the gem, so it can go to its afterlife (or whatever). Characters who use soul gems but do not harvest the souls themselves are like people who eat at McDonalds, but do not electrocute the cows themselves.
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I know I'm bringing up a lot of topics people don't wanna hear and strongly disagree with, by the way. We're all mature advlts (or mature kids possibly), but for the sake of the forums, I'm cutting out here before a flame-war erupts.
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How do you know? You are not a plant yourself. If they feel pain, they cannot tell you, but you can see their reaction and changes. If you plant a flower, but you don't give it water and whatever it need to live, you can see it suffering, its petal will fall, its leaf turn to brownish, and so on...the plant suffer, but it can't tell you verbally.

You and some scientists believe the thing that have brain and nervous system are possible to feel pain, but science is limited. Our life is beyond what the scientists say. And most scientists are just assume things. Today they say this, tomorrow they say other. Today they say cellphone have no proof leading to brain cancer, tomorrow they say cellphone lead to brain cancer.

if you say plants are specifically made/created to be eaten, what the difference with human? Animals such as lions and tigers can say human are specifically made to be eaten. A virus say human are their food. Everything can be eaten in fact, only that you want to eat, or not to eat, that is the question.

What important is balance, that is what we all seek and should do, the balance in life, we are not extremists and don't become extremists. Vegetarians are extremists, and there are many extremists out there but they deny it. to love extremely also extremism, to hate extremely is also extremism.

As a human, it is our nature to eat animals and plants, but to balance it, that is the issue. Like i said before, in my religion perspective, to kill animal for food (and for any good use) is allowed, but to kill animal for nothing and abuse (anything that is for wrong purpose, wrongly doing it and wrong reason) is "haram" (not allowed, wrong and sinned). And there are ways to kill the animal, not just killing it.

Anyway, in this Soul Trap issue, using similar device, i can say Soul Trap is wrong, kill people or any living being to steal their soul to recharge your items and make yourself powerful, that is selfish, revengeful and abusive. We must respect even to our enemy. We must respect even to prisoner. We do not piss on our dead enemy like US Marine did...(you guys know what i mean)


I agree with you, i should stop before i babling in non-related topic.

How does anything feel pain without a nervous system, or a brain to send messages to so it knows its in pain? If there's nothing to register the pain, then it won't feel anything surely?

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-07/study-unveils-plant-nervous-system-illuminating-how-plants-remember-and-react. While they do not have a neurons as mammals do, they have something that works in a similar way. They do react to external stimuli, and can transmit the information of that stimuli from one part of the plant to the rest of it. We still do not honestly know just what they are capable of.