Souls and Soul-Ownership, Query

Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:46 pm

So I have been wondering for a while since it came up in Skyrim way back but was never expanded on, how does soul ownership work?


Let me elaborate: a Nord is destined to go to Sovngarde upon their death unless their soul is owned by someone else (such as being a Lycan means you are owned by Hircine) but in the context of Skyrim you are capable of technically giving your soul to multiple sources which is impossible.


Imagine this: a Nord Werewolf becomes a Nightingale but dies in the devoted service of the Dark Brotherhood...who gets this mortal's soul? Nocturnal, Hircine, Sithis, or Sovngarde?


Are there strict contract stipulations that the Aedra and Daedra (and Sithis) abide by? Is this some weird supernatural legal case?


With so many ways to lose ownership of your soul it seems likely that this question would be answered already but I have not yet seen it...
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brenden casey
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:46 am

In instances where there's multiple claims on your soul, personally i'd imagine it's just a matter of whoever manages to snag you away from the grasp of the others first. The gods don't all play nice with each other :v.
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Stephanie I
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:54 pm



I wonder which Daedra has the most souls?
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Adriana Lenzo
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:26 pm

The few books we can read of the 16 Accords of Madness have a couple cases of Daedric Princes 'fighting' over a soul, although I'm not sure how trustworthy those books are as sources, they could just be fiction - within fiction. In any case in those books it seems more like a political legal game or something, if someone becomes clearly mad then Sheogorath takes them to the Shivering Isles when they die, even in the case of an Orc loyal to Malacath and a follower of Vaermina, when said Daedric princes are even present upon their death alongside Sheo.

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CHANONE
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:40 pm

Personally the idea of anyone claiming your soul is entirely just a bluff gods do save an exception with soul gems. The way I take it from Tsun of "You can come here when it's your time if you choose too" shows it's entirely based on the individual where they go but gods will trick people into believing their soul is destined to go to the god's realm.
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electro_fantics
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:36 pm

I'm sure there's been at least one wierdo in Tamrielic history who went around promising their soul to as many different Aedra and Daedra as possible, just to see what would happen when they died.

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adame
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:43 am


That's what I thought too, but it could be a special case with the Dragonborn?

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Rachel Briere
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:51 am


And then soul trapped themselves in their final moments to tell all of them to shove it? :P

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Darian Ennels
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:20 am

the companion's questline says differently, what with Kodlak being forced to "hide" at Ysgramor's tomb after death to avoid Hircine long enough for you to free his soul from Lycanthropy. We can go to Sovngarde and actually see Kodlak there if we saved his soul.


Then there is the case of the Nightingales who are owned via contract with Nocturnal which we can see fulfilled by all the dead Nightingales protecting the Evergloam's entrance.


Molag Bal took that Boethia's cultists soul in his Skyrim Questline and I'm I bet he took that widowed Guy's from the Oblivion Questline as well (hence his reason for corrupting them).


So I have absolutely no belief that everyone lies about soul ownership as we see evidence supporting it and no evidence refuting it
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trisha punch
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:57 pm

I would like to clarify this, not all Nords are destined for Sovngarde by birthright.. its sort of an afterlife for only "the chosen few".. I am pretty sure just like most races, a good chunk of the souls are recycled through the dreamsleeve (and souls themselves may not actually be bound to a single race at all, and the reason we see ghosts or bound souls as a specific race being they haven't had those racial aspects "cleaned" in the sleeve yet)...


and while there are conflicting opinions on this, Sovngarde may not be exclusive to just the Nord race, but to anyone Shor deems worthy who followed either the Nord Pantheon, or "lived as if they were a Nord"..

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Joe Alvarado
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:05 pm


You're ignoring what I said. Kodlak believed his soul was destined to go to Hircine but just because he didn't go to Hircine means little as ghosts in TES regardless of where they believe to go have been a common thing throughout the games, the Nightingales believed that's where they would end up through Nocturnal's pact, Molag Bal made the Boethiah cultist submit to him so obviously the cultist believed he would go to Molag Bal. Each example holds that they each believe their soul was going somewhere but that doesn't mean they really have to go there.

There is a difference between belief and reality.
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Heather Stewart
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:33 pm

and yet there is not a single instance that says otherwise. At not a single point in the TES series has someone been owned by a Prince but went to a different afterlife because they "believed" they would
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Harry Leon
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:40 am

Well we can't say that because tbf we haven't seen where most souls go, we only know they go to an afterlife but if they go to certain one is still unknown. So far the only characters we can say that go to an afterlife they choose to was sovngarde which brings what Tsun said that "You can come here when it's your time" more relevant because this god would know, he has no reason to lie and talking to souls of the departed is pretty much his job, saying "well it's just the dragonborn" is nothing but straw grasping.

So unless you can actually prove a point against it without a soul going "Nope I'm not going there, I'm going here" then it's really up to theory as there is enough to state that yea, that's what happens. The Nightingales, the Harbingers, the souls in Sovngarde, that's all proof that can be used for my point as those souls believed they were destined to go there.
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Assumptah George
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:07 pm

Tsun says you can go to Sovngarde because you are Dragonborn, there is no evidence to support him being able to know if your soul is owned by someone else. This neither proves nor even implies anything to the contrary of my side.


We have zero evidence to even imply your theory is correct and yet every single bit of evidence supports what I have already said.


It is like claiming argonians are made of chocolate, we know they aren't because they are made of scales, bone, and organs but why not assume they are made of chocolate anyways?
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m Gardner
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:18 pm

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0005195a

No he doesn't. He doesn't say anything of the sort.

Complete list of his dialogue
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0004f828

So far with the exception of the Soul Cairn and Necromancy (Both cases though are through entrapment through a soul gem or magic, so it's more of holding a soul hostage through magic) we can assume that souls go to a certain afterlife because they either choose through free-will or false belief that they'll go there. AGAIN, Nightingales believe they go to the Evergloam because they're made to believe that and the same thing with the souls of Sovngarde.

Also no, it's not the same logic as my point, it's a really crappy attempt at making it seem like it is but it's really not.
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jason worrell
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:47 pm

no we have no reason to "assume" that when all the evidence in the universe says the opposite. There is no logical reason to think that "belief" trumps the power of the gods, literally not a single scrap of evidence...not a line of text from a book or npc, not a line from a writer making the games, not through basic logic, or anything. Literally you claiming it as fact is the only time in all of TES' existence that such a contradictory and illogical statement has been made.


So once again: there is no evidence to claim or imply that your theory is even remotely possible, while the opposite is both written, implied, and spoken within the actual material...the end
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Lauren Dale
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:34 pm

Except all evidence doesn't support that because all evidence leads up to one thing, they believed they would go there. Again, it's not that actually had to it's they believed they had to. THAT is the point you're missing.

Tsun himself states this

If you pick the Thieves Guild option he'll say this

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0004fa44

but then he'll say this

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x0005195a

So yea, the "may" is him being hopeful you make that choice or that it's possible which can be used to further support my case.
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Louise Dennis
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:21 pm

This is not 40k Orks, "belief" is not a supernatural driving force in TES. You continue to "assume" things, based on no evidence whatsoever. So when Lamae was made the first Vampire and believed that Arkay would save her or when Vyrthur was infected and believed Auriel would save him and yet they were both wrong!


"Belief" based on the opposite of all evidence and logic is not even a theory, it is madness. I don't know why I am even bothering to discuss this lunacy, go elsewhere while everyone attempts to discuss the Elder Scrolls Lore rather than whatever obviously separate series you are talking about
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Leanne Molloy
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:19 pm

But look what I just stated. Tsun will say "Your doom is binded to your Dark Mistress" for the thieves guild dialogue option but in his outro he'll say "When you have completed your count of days, I may welcome you again, with glad friendship, and bid you join the blessed feasting" look at the word "may" one of it's definitions is "expressing possibility" which holds up to the context of his dialogue. He himself states that even though the LDB binded to Nocturnal you have the CHOICE to come to Sovngarde and he never makes any note of it being because the LDB is dragonborn.

Belief actually is a supernatural driving force in TES because belief is strong but it's not a "solve all problems" kind of force like it is for Orks. Lamae and Vyrthur are not good examples, they may be good examples that belief doesn't solve every problem an individual faces but they don't disprove that belief is still very powerful in the TES universe. All the examples I hold up are still accurate as belief is still a major reason why they go to the afterlife they choose to.
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Soraya Davy
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:01 pm

sure it totally isn't possible that Beth just didn't bother to make a tailored farewell line for your allegiance forTsun to say <-sarcasm


Or maybe it all comes back to what I originally asked: the gods might have to fight over the soul they all claim, Tsun's line NEVER implies that belief can determine your fate, the word "may" does not in any way hint at that.


Belief is NOT a force of anything in TES, you showed no evidence of it either, you just continue throwing it out as if it were fact. Now go elsewhere, I have no patience for your nonsense
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Yvonne Gruening
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:02 pm

Ah yes because if it can be used to defeat your point then it was just "Bethesda being lazy" I love that classic, bad point that people make when they're in a corner.

Tsun line DOES imply that belief, the word may can hint at that and so can the line "bid you join the blessed feasting" because that's asking someone to join, not saying "you have to join the feasting". Belief is a force, hell the simple fact that a worshiper goes to the afterlife of their chosen god or religion is proof of this. while the gods may be real religion is still a matter of belief and the fact there are so many ideas of the afterlife shows not everyone goes to the same afterlife, why? Because they believe that.

Take an Azura worshiper, they'll believe in Azura as the deity to worship and will go to her realm on death but they aren't soul-bound to that religion as they can later change to worshiping someone like Mephala. Now they're going to go to Mephala's realm after death as they worship and believe in Mephala as the deity to worship.

Religions and personal Gods can be switched depending on the will of the person, so why can't afterlifes be the same? The idea of an afterlife is based on the worship of a specific religion or god but said beliefs can change at any time due to numerous different factors.
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Rach B
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:45 pm

except that Daedra claiming ownership of souls is a common FACT in TES! When you worship a deity you give your soul to them or they claim it as their property, there is once again NO evidence to support otherwise. I'm done with you and your obvious delusions. Maybe you should actually play TES a bit before derailing discussions of lore with random gibberish. Your soul is now a permanent resident of my almost totally empty ignore list, you can attempt to "believe" otherwise but just like in TES that does not mean anything
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Sammygirl
 
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Post » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:51 pm

Why? Because the Daedra said so? Daedra can lie you know, just like any other kind of being. There really isn't any evidence to support that a Daedra's claim on a soul is absolute and in fact with Kodlak we see one way to get out even after death. I've been playing and researching TES lore since Morrowind and can come up with many examples to use for my point.

Again, we have enough to state belief in TES is powerful and we have enough to form a theory that yea, if a soul believes they're going to a certain afterlife they're going there but it's not a matter of fact that they have no choice but to go there.
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Mandy Muir
 
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