I've seen people argue on this forum that Sovngarde being located in Aetherius "violates existing lore." I don't see how. I'm going to lay out my position below and also just post some accumulated knowledge on the subject. I would love some feedback and an explanation of why you guys think this is a lore-violation.

3rd Ed. Pocket Guide

This seems to fit with my argument that the gods are not dead. I don't want to start that whole conversation over again, but we had a lengthy discussion in a thread recently. Basically, I argue that while some of the et'ada died and became the earthbones, some became the various Elnofhey, but some survived (including the Divines and the Magne-Ge.) The Divines only sacrificed parts of themselves (not all of themselves) to creation. They are tied to nirn but still exist independently from it in Aetherius. See Auriel ascending.

I believe this theory is also supported by Vehk's Teachings:

So I view the spokes of the wheel as the extensions of the Aedra from Aetherius into Mundus. In this way, the Aedra are tied/bound to Mundus as the Magne-Ge are not. None the less, they still reside in Aetherius. The simply have 'tendrils' extending to the mortal realm that hold it in place.

Also, from the 3rd Edition Pocket Guide:


Anyway....back on topic.

From Sovngarde, Rexamined:

Shor is currently in Sovngarde. We already pretty much know this from dialogue, even though he was absent when the Dragonborn entered.

From the quest journal:
Here's the big one. We are directly told that Sovngarde is a realm of Aetherius.

We know that the Mantella was blasted into Aetherius, so it is quite reachable for mortals, although difficult. So Dovahkiin going there wouldn't be at all unprecedented.

From Monomyth:


So it has a multitude of realms.....

It's also commonly understood that the dead travel to Aetherius:

From Jaufree's dialogue in Oblivion:


From Vehk's Teaching:

So what source gives us the information to think that Sovngarde couldn't be in Aetherius? It seems logical to me.

I think of the Dreamsleeve as a process of recycling more than a "place." Souls go to aetherius after death (or to a Daedric realm if more associated with a Daedra) and are recycled. Sovngarde is simply the realm (of the many realms) that Shor has created in Aetherius for his followers.

Well, I'm convinced.

I think you're probably right. I mean the big one is that the game actually says outright that Sovngarde is in Aetherius.

The moons are obviously Lorkhan/Shor's body, but they're rotting away. So that makes me think that his soul is elsewhere. So why not Aetherius?

I thought his Soul was inside his Heart? That might just be my headcanon though, which says that hearts are basically living soul gems, as the Mantella and Lorkhan's Heart are both used for similar purposes.

Mind if I borrow this awesome bit of your headcanon to enhance that of mine? =)

That's how I think of it as well. His rotting flesh is left behind but his divinity or "soul" is in Aetherius. Just like the Daedra never really die.

Hmm...perhaps his Heart is just the physical manifestation of his soul? Or a physical portal to his aetherial soul?

You're right though. The heart is usually seen as his "divine spark."

WAIT!!! I just figured it out while writing this. We aren't given proof of Sovngarde until the Bloodmoon expansion (and subsequently in Skyrim). The Bloodmoon expansion takes place AFTER the destruction of the Heart at the hands of the Nerevarine.

So Shor didn't return to Aetherius until his heart was released. Maybe?

Nah, thats just foolheaded Imperial belief.
Souls do not leave the Mundus and go to Aetherius, they are recylced in the Dreamsleeve.
Souls do apparently do ascend to Aetherius are rare and noted, such as Auri-El who seemingly did a Magna-Ge exit-stage-left all on his own.
While Aetherius may be the original home of the Et'Ada, the Mundus where the Aedra resign is not a part of it.
The Aedra are bound to the Mundus, for in a large part they are the Mundus.
We also know that the major Aedra do not reside in Aetherius as they are great big planets that orbit Nirn.
The Magna-Ge live in Aetherius, they are the ones that went back. They tore holes in the veil on doing so, showing that they werent there to begin with at the time.
Sovngarde is a pocket realm, possibly located inside the Dreamsleeve.

I think it's mainly due to the fact that the plane of Lorkhan, or the original Serpent should be Nirn, as his Heart which means soul got thrown into it, and both Masser and Secunda are in Mundus with other plane(t)s, that no part of the Serpent is actually beyond Mundus. By that Sovngarde in the dreamsleeve which is also in Mundus means no mortal death but the dream of a dreamer who loves Mundus, which has its own beauty of its link to dream and maybe more to the choice of leaving behind of Lorkhan to make Nirn the catalyst more effective, that the Nords stay in Mundus to merge with Shor to fortify Mundus. And this theory also gives us the main difference between the Nordic religion and the Aldmeri series religion, that it is the Mer who wish to escape, not the Nords.

But of course, as Auriel had ascended to Aetherius it means aspects of dead Aedra could go to Aetherius due to the belief of mortals. So I think there's no problem that Shor's Sovngarde got into Aetherius due to the belief of the Nords, which gives the Nords their mortal death into Aetherius and made them truly merged with Shor while passed through the catalyst. Though sadly it makes the Nordic religion and the Aldmeri religion a little overlapped on the same theme of leaving Mundus.


Unlike Tribunal, it is not determined that the events of Bloodmoon must happen after the whole Heart-releasing thing. And the Heart was not destroyed, but released into god know where. In another thread I think due to the mixing effect of Talos the Heart went into a tangled state with the impossipoint so that Nirn could still be in a stable state without the Red Tower which used to be a nessesary, which means the Heart should still in Mundus, just function through another Tower. It just seems unlikely that the soul of the Serpent would leave what is his greatest love.

So I mean no disrespect....

But do you have any sources for your claims? I provided many. I realize that we are ultimately dealing with myths and theories. No one is more "true" than another necessarily. All of our lore is just the interpretations of some in-world character.

But I gave you a multitude of sources. These included not only Imperial texts, but also teachings from an ascended demi-god God who CHIM'ed.

I've heard the argument you're making before but I just don't see any basis for it in the lore. I think your theory, like a lot of the theories people have on here, comes from fan-fic and headcanon. The TES lore community is very insulated. I believe many loremasters are suffering from epistemic-closure.

You call "LORE VIOLATION!!" when the devs do something that doesn't match your head canon. But if you actually look at real existing lore from the devs, there is no violation.

Residing in Aetherius in no-way means he has abandoned Nirn. His Heart is simply free and no longer tied down. I think you hit the nail on the head though with regards to stability. Talos and the Akatosh defeat of Dagon make it so the Heart is no longer necessary.

But, yes, Shor is in Sovngarde which is in Aetherius. There are sources to prove this and no sources to contradict it.

Well it's in the game.. so it kind of has to be.

You'd be surprised how uncommon this type of thinking is among lorumites....

Those who worship the nine divines often claim they live on in Aetherius - not because this is true - but because they understandably don't want to accept that their gods have become nothing more then myth-echos and natural laws.

When the texts say "Some of the gods disappeared to Aetherius," they are referring to the Magne-Ge. Don't forget that The Eight chose to stay behind instead of abandoning creation like Magnus. The Aedra are "Of Aetherius" insofar as they are Anuic.

I'm open to the idea that there are specific afterlives for the followers of the Aedra, but these belong on the Planet-Realms of the Divines, not in Aetherius:


There is also in-game evidence for Dream-Sleeve reincarnation:


But most of all, I hate the idea of TES having a proper "Heaven".

I dont really feel like looking up a lot at this time, sorry.
Maybe Ill do that later.
The Anuad and http://www.imperial-library.info/content/cosmologyy come to mind though.
All that we know about the creation of the Mundus, about the origin of the Et'Ada and the Aedra indicates that despite what Imperials seem to believe, Aetherius is not a place where the Aedra reside.
They can not, its not how the story goes.

And, as Toesock said, Tamriel having a 'proper heaven'..

Probably http://www.imperial-library.info/content/monomyth explains it best.
Creation was unstable. The Magna-Ge, upon realising what sacrifice was neccesary left for Aetherius.
The Aedra stayed and poured themselves wholly or partially into Creation in order to stabilise it.
The largest of the surviving Aedra orbit Nirn as Plane(t)s.
This shows that the Eight are irrevocably bound to the Mundus.
They do not reside in Aethrius.

There are also side issues that would arise from a non-Dreamsleeve recycling but a bleeding out into Aetherius.
What happens when too many or all souls, all Aedric fragments, have left the Mundus for Aetherius?
Souls do not just pop out of Oblivion on birth, they are recycled Aedric fragments.

I think people need to reread the OP before commenting further.

NordJitsu isn't discounting the existence of the Dreamsleeve or the process of soul recycling, just where exactly the process takes place. It would have a certain elegance to it, that the Imperials observe souls ascending to Aetherius on death and form the conclusion that they stay there forever (this becoming one of the central tenants of their faith), when in fact they immediately get scrubbed down, wiped clean, and plopped back into some other poor schmuck's body.

That said, I don't believe that the Eight have realms like Sovngarde of their own. Shor is Padomaic, more aligned with the Daedra than the Divines (Mankar Camoran would have us believe that he *is* in fact a Daedra). Him building Sovngarde might come from a place of love rather than desire to subvert, but the effect is the same- removing souls from the cycle and preventing them from achieving transcendence. It makes sense for Shor to have his own realm by nature of what he is, less so for Akatosh or Kynareth or any of the rest.

I don't see how Sovngarde being in Aetherius contradicts existing lore. If existing lore said "Sovngarde is not in Aetherius" I could understand it, but to the best of my knowledge there is nothing that says this.

If Aetherius is the Afterlife, then Magnus and his kin (Mnemoli etc.) are the lords and ladies of the Underworld. This makes no sense - they are the beings that specifically left Mundus to avoid death.

One aspect from many residing in Aetherius? it is ok. Soul residing in Aetherius? No, that's the realm dominated by Magne-Ge. The Underking wanted his heart back from Aetherius with proper reason, so the agent had to go to take Mantella from Aetherius back into Mundus, the main reason for the starting up of Numidium or not.

I only accept Sovngarde in Aetherius on condition that it is not a whole plane(t) but a single pocket of a single aspect, like that supposed one of Auriel, while the true plane(t) of Auriel is still the Eye of Warrior the dead planet in Mundus. The pocket plane is made out of the mortal faith like the aspect himself, and is supposed to be sustained greatly by mortal belief, and entering these pocket planes after death means to merge with the owner of the plane, thus fortifying the particular aspect.

It seems to me that the Akatosh defeating Dagon might just in fact at the same time be the Aka part of Talos, which oriented from Tiber Septim yet became the Oversoul of the Amulet of Kings, which was the reason why Talos got linked to the White-Gold then to the Wheel, by which Talos bound Akatosh and another aspect of Lorkhan (Wulfharth-Shor-Shezarr(?)) together to form his own self and being. Remember Aka had to land his own ship onto Nirn to form a Tower, yet still he need the Heart of Lorkhan to form another Tower to stable Mundus, then Aka could "leave", or in truth shattered into pieces of aspects, supposing some of which in Mundus while others in Aetherius. Talos is only fortifying Mundus. As the aspects of the Dragon and the aspects of the Serpents are still in the shattering state, the Heart of Lorkhan is still in need, only by the tangling effect of Talos that the Heart needs not its own Tower, but could share another Tower with the Stone that contains what of Aka that from Tower to Stone the mirroed twins entangled like those united in Talos. By that even after the eruption of Red Mountain Nirn is still in one piece.

* Just realized if the Heart is in the same state as the Amulet of Kings it is also a Two-Combine effect. But still, the Soul's in Mundus, only not in the shape of a Stone, that succeeded to make the barrier re-established and the space stablized.

I don't think that OP meant Aetherius is the Afterlife, but rather the Afterlife is a part of Aetherius.

Also, I don't see any reason why the Magne-Ge avoiding death excludes them from being lords of death. Especially when death in this case involves being recycled back into a new life.

What about the Serpent constellation? It's described as being made up of "unstars," which logic would dictate radiate Mundane energies into Aetherius (the opposite of what stars do). You could have pocket realms that exist right on the border of Aetherius and Mundus, where the energies of the two mingle (the spiritual equivalent of brackish water). Technically, it would be "Aetherius", but not entirely.

Not really, because not all of atherius is the afterlife.

Just like not all of Oblivion is the soul Cairn.

Death is the centerpoint of mundus. Aetherius is several layers up the Matryoshka doll. Why exactly would souls end up there? I want an explanation of what Aetherius has to do with mortality.

I can tell you why the Imperials assume the gods live there: they know of the exit of the Magne-Ge, and would like to think that their own gods made it out alive as well. They can see that the influence of the gods in daily life is vague and infrequent, thus they assume that they live in a realm separate from Mundus.


You're someone who's opinion I respect. Do you think there is enough evidence to place the dreamsleeve within Aetherius?

Vivec states that the Aedra are the children of Aetherius not that they reside in Aetherius. That's not a source.

The rest of your sources are Imperial books by Imperial scholars who have been taught that the 9 Divines live in Aetherius and now recite it as well.

The Lore goes against it since it is known that the Magne-Ge are different from the Aedra because they fled to Aetherius whilst the Aedra did not. If the Aedra left 'where are their holes/tears in Oblivion?'. The Aedra most-likely died after Convention but were reborn through the mythopoeical prayers of Man and Mer.

No, but the only reasons (to my knowledge) we think the dreamsleeve is part of the Mundus are these lines (pulled from http://www.imperial-library.info/content/when-dead-gods-dream by Luagar)

“Dagoth Ur: "Sharmat. Dream-sleeved inversion, where the Biters live, he brought them here, pawn of the Aggregate."--Nu-Hatta of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree

“We mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth the same, unmantled save for the symbiosis with our mothers…”—Mythic Dawn Commentaries

“Mundus to Mortal Death: centerpoint to the soon recycled.”—The Loveletter

“The Sharmat sleeps at the center. He cannot bear to see it removed, the world of reference. This is the folly of the false dreamer. This is the amnesia of dream, or its power, or its circumvention.” -- Sermon 13

That's a pretty tenuous connection, but still, I think it works, and that the dreamsleeve itself is part of the Mundus. But notice that none of these sources actually indicate that souls return directly to the dreamsleeve after death. On the contrary, the Loveletter says,

"Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE—either to the god-planet Aedra or the Principalities of Oblivion. Vehk’s name for this transaction, mentioned above, is “lunar currency”."-- Loveletter from the Fifth Era

But, also from the Loveletter, we know that mortal souls are 'soon recycled.' So it seems that once they reach the aligned god-planet Aedra (I would assume that those that go to the Principalities are not recycled) some stuff happens and they somehow end up in the dreamsleeve to be born.

The real question is: where are the Aedra? The answer, I think, is that they are in Aetherius - and that Aetherius is in Oblivion. Consider Umbriel: it is part of Vile's realm, but it is separate from Vile's realm. It enters the Mundus, but doesn't really enter the Mundus. Perhaps the god-plane(t)s are similar pinched off bits of Aetherius.

If this were true, then the souls of mortals would in a sense return to Aetherius upon death - but only to the pinched off piece that is their aligned god-plane(t).

But I'll have to think a little more to understand why souls reappropriate to their aligned god-plane(t)s after death.

http://i.imgur.com/LDHK8.png to illustrate my point. It sounds like dinmenel has roughly the same idea as me, he just used fancy words instead of a fourth-grade crayon drawing to get his ideas across