Play demons souls. It has a large number of wepaons and all 'standard' weaons are made reaslistically. Spears can be in with good balance. I think people's expectations should be limitedto it being a stick which pokes you and not some whirling nijna action. I dont mind if they are not in when push comes to shove.

That is not the point I was arguing against. Don't mix up the arguments.
My point was that they have a unique look and a unique feel, while you claimed that halberds/bastiches were simply better versions of them, and not having them is therefore no loss because we have something better.


This is something you do - you keep arguing with Morrowind's flawed system. (By the way, where did all the "don't like it don't use it" mentality go here all of a sudden?)
However, we're talking about new and improved combat here. We're talking about disarming moves, blocking and counter-attacking. There are gameplay mechanics already implemented in Oblivion, which will be found in an improved way in Skyrim, that can help to balance out spears. Less damage in comparison to other weapons is one thing, the other is that with the right moves, it might be easier to break through the defense of a spear wielding opponent - you could grab the spear (there's no blade in large parts of the weapon and it's light, so that's a pretty safe move), and outmaneuvering is easier too because sidewards moves are pointless with a spear.
These are just quick options that come to mind. It's certainly not impossible, or very difficult even, to balance spears.


We're not in disagreement here. I didn't say they were the only weapons possible when mounted, I said they were the only weapons that normally fall under the Two Handed skill that would also be possible on a mount. One-handed swords should be the most important weapon for mounted combat. But light versions of spears would work just as well. You gain the same momentum, and while two hands are preferable in close combat, holding it with one hand is definitely possible when mounted.

You know, imagine they kept spears under wraps until October and then *Boom!* they show a trailer with a spear wielding viking - how crazy would the forum go then? (*wink* *wink*) :vaultboy:

I've seen this a couple times now. How is it faulty logic just because it was in a different game? Just because they don't just run in straight lines doesn't make it any less abusable. Just because people will dodge occasionally, doesn't change the fact that you can keep them at a distance by constantly staggering them. Frankly, if you put spears in Oblivion like they were in Morrowind, they would've done the same thing and I'd expect that it would be a little harder to keep them in an infinite loop of staggering in Skyrim but I'd stake my life on the fact that it would still be possible.

I really don't get why people can't grasp the fact that other polearms and spears are basically the same thing. The other Polearms are more ornate and they are swings or chops, depending on their implementation, which allows for openings, while stabbing allows for far less openings, which is not good gameplay. They are the same thing yet people still complain. What we can say is that spears aren't actually even in TES lore, they only appeared in one game, Morrowind. Polearms are more than a reasonable version of spears in the TES mythos and the magic users of Nirn just found no reason to make spears because they were less effective than the other polearms.

While I'm sort of in agreement with what your saying (practically how polearms are essentially spears, mostly because spears ARE polearms), I feel like I have to correct you here.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hircine. And what's his weapon of choice? A spear. Not a halberd, not any other polearm, a spear.

And the excuse of "He only appeared in Morrowind" doesn't fly, as he was in Daggerfall, Battlespire, and even Oblivion. And, of course, not to mention he is a very integral part of TES lore in general.

Remember that we will be walking slower backwards now. Sounds like a good way to make your opponent give pressure.

And why spears couldn't be "exotic" like weapon to Skyrim?
It could only be bought from certain specialized marchands... Maybe even a marchand from Morrowind that came back to Skyrim and now sales weapons from Morrowind, that we canot find in Skyrim, normaly.

But that's exactly the thing you said. You said that thinking that halberds are better versions of spears was narrow-minded when in fact, halberds ARE better versions of spears, thus is why they came into use in place of spears in the real world and most likely the same for the TES mythos. The problem is that spears just aren't worth the work to balance when you can have polearms ~ Spears that are built on a system that is balanced.



Yes, I keep arguing with Morrowind's flawed spears because it is evidence of their problem. The "don't like it, don't use it" mentality doesn't apply to things that actually affects how combat works. If an aspect of the game makes it where you can't be stopped no matter what with spears, then it trivializes the rest of the game. There isn't a "don't use it" because it will be there for someone to trivialize every aspect of the game, godhood is not an aspect that belongs in games and the devs will not purposely put it in. The problem is, the new and improved combat still doesn't eliminate the fact that you can keep stabbing the enemy at a range to keep them staggered and unable to attack you, with the new combat you have to turn now then stab. It's not the problem of the character having a problem with an NPC with a spear, it is the problem of the player annihilating every NPC without fear. People keep saying balance them but it doesn't change the fact that it takes time to try to fix something like long range stabbing weapons and it would be better just to replace them with a weapon that is the same in almost every way for those that really want spears and yet people are still angry because it really just boils down to spears were OP and that's why people want them back. Same goes for people wanting multiple layers of armor back so they can enchant them to god hood and levitation back because they can fly around without being put in combat even though it doesn't fit in lore. This isn't wild conjecture, people have said int eh past that they wanted the layers back because they can enchant them so they can become a god, same goes for levitation and no one has said that about spears but that's exactly the same reason. All the features that went away from Morrowind (save the travel networks) that people go insane about getting back were all overpowered or exploitable in some way. Coincidence? I think not.



But that's the thing, just because a two handed weapon is a two handed doesn't mean you can't use it while mounted such as a polearm. You can either hold it in one hand off to the side and allow the momentum to the damage or you can hold it with both hand and swing as you pass also, your horse will still ride straight without your hands on the reigns, I know my horses do.



It was an example to get over the point, it wasn't a literal statement.



Didn't have to backpedal to do this before either. You can stand your ground and just spin around in the direction you need to focus your attacks on.

exactly. This game would be the best TES game, or best game ever if they can make combat mechanic and flow exceed Dark Messiah and Mount and Blade.

I don't recall him confirming a polearm of any kind. I remember him saying that spears as we know them are not in, but I do not think the as we know them part is enough to prove something similar is taking their place.

Concept art + the way he described it in the toddcast is compelling evidence that polearms are in the game to replace spears. People just need to interpret information instead of needing direct, literal information.

Well, then you need to come up with better examples, because saying something isn't apart of the lore when it is is just silly.

Just saying. :wink_smile:

Besides, if I hadn't said it, one of the real lore junkies would've shoved that info down your throat until you couldn't breath anymore. :grad:

Anyways, as I said, agreed with you that other polearms could replace spears, but disagreeing that spears are unbalanced and potential game breakers because of how it was implemented in Morrowind. Skyrim is a different game, and I'm sure the devs could implement spears in many different ways that don't make them "horribly OP'd" as you claim. Saying the devs can't, or that they shouldn't bother, is just silly.

Either way, I'm expecting them to be modded back in eventually, so I really don't care anymore.

My apologies for interpreting it as such, then.



I'm just saying there are a whole sea of assumptions required to argue that polearms are more friendly to add than spears. It assumes that spears will be difficult to fix no matter what circumstances, that polearms will be less difficult to add than spears no matter what circumstances, and that any form of combat system Bethesda might implement cannot possibly have failsafes to counter potential spear problems. It also assumes that spears *need* to be fixed in the first place, when instead they could go the route that arrows seem to be in Skyrim, powerful but hard to come by. Spears could be so limited that to find one is to earn the right to be dominant.
And frankly, that's just too much assumption and too much guessing to hold a viable argument.

Personally, I don't care if spears or polearms are in or not. I expect the game to stand on its own merits regardless.


Hmm... Care to clarify that bolded segment?

As a personal matter of taste, the ability to enchant items to godhood, or to fly, or to for example use potentially dominant weaponry is just fine, so long as enough respective effort was put into earning it.

I just want to say that I have a hard time imaging a game fighting dragons without a spear or lance. It's th quintisential fighting large monster weapon. Especially given the reach of said large monsters.

I don't get it. If anything the other polearms should be more imbalanced. With only thrusting, all a spear takes is someone to sidestep. After that, they're in your face. Your spear is slower than their weapon (because it's longer and needs different motion and more area), and you can't backtrack because backtracking is now slower. Tide of the fight has turned..
With a chopping polearm, since they can stab (i.e. they already do what a spear can do) and chop, sidestepping is not as easy so one could keep people far away more easily.


PS the number one overpowering problem the clip in the OP shows is with jumping and how he was using it to avoid hits. I doubt anyone would remove jumping.

spears are for stabbing, that's the problem I think....they're not really good for single combat. I know some guy who just wants them sooo bad will disagree but the fact is that spears are for the rank and file and no one liked them until 300 haha. I mean, they weren't in Oblivion and I don't think the game suffered for it. I think it's possible there could be other polearms in, ones that could share an animation, but I don't think spears would be all that practical.

Spears are the weapons badasses use. And fixing them is simple: slow the attack speed down, slow backpedaling, and BOOM, not "overpowered", especially if they're like Morrowind where they are consistently overshadowed by more-powerful swords. And you, Sleign, are still the only person I've ever seen call spears "overpowered."

Not really, I don't have to have better examples. It's a daedric artifact. The Daedric Princes are known for making outlandish and powerful weapons. So it doesn't make it any more real that it would be part of world as a common weapon. Well seeing as how in the only game they were ever in they were unbalanced and potential game breakers sort've makes it evident. People keep saying "it's a different game". Cool, it's a different game, but you still have to change the mechanic of spears to not make it overpowered. Being a different game doesn't magically fix them and making a weapon that is basically the same thing as spears but used swings to balance instead of stabbing is a bit easier than wasting development time trying to fix something that already is in the game in the form of the other polearms. That's like adding in a type of sword just because it only stabs, there is no point when you already have a basically the same weapon.

If people want to mod in spears, then all the power to them but spears have most likely been put back in the game in the form of polearms and there is no need to have overpowered spears in the base game.



Well you've figured out how to fix spears, I guess me and the BGS devs need to get out of VG design. It's your opinion that spears are weapons that badasses use but polearms are basically the same thing as spears, not sure why you can't except a balanced version of spears instead of spears. Stabbing is the very act that breaks spears. I'm not the only one that calls spears overpowered, it's just denial from those that love them. I mean, I just showed you video evidence in the OP. :wacko:

I'm not sure why people keep acting like I'm trying to denounce spears, I'm trying to show people that they don't need to go insane because there are no spears because polearms are almost exactly the same weapon. They are more ornate and the difference is you swing them instead of stabbing with them. Not sure why people can't ecstatic about having their spears back just in a slightly different form, especially since they are going to look better than they did in the past (Spear of Bitter Mercy was one of the few nice looking spears).

for some reason I think Bethesda is just playing with us, I think they add spears in the game in the end. And the suprise when your character walks into the nearest smithstore in Skyrim, finding a spear on display as the first thing you see walking in the door will be epic.

"This is an Outrage", I'm kidding this is an ok decision. They must've some reason as to why Spears didn't make the cut. Maybe M'aiq or his predecessor will tell us one day.

There will be spears, just not in the classical sense. :celebration:

Sidestepping a spear isn't really possible (it's too fast for it), unless the opponents have wildly different skill levels in their respective weapons / combat styles, but then it's not a question of which weapon is "better" anymore. Disarming the spear guy is hard too. You deal with spears in one of two ways for the most part:

1. Break it. Cut it apart. They are mostly wood, after all. That's the "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweihander" method, and it works even against phalanxes - but it's damn risky.

2. Deflect the thrust into something which can hold the spear (the earth is the best location, but in the worst case even the muscles of your own shield arm or other non-vital areas of your body will do), rapidly close on the spear bearer, cut him down before he can reach for his side weapon.

Now, you can "underrun" the spear, or hit it to the side and make a few quick steps to be inside the maximum range. But you're still inside the effective range of the spear then, only the spear bearer has to use it as a staff weapon now.

That would be great.

Why would they be playing with you? I get the feeling that almost no one read the OP. Most people read "No spear" and posted. Spears are not in but polearms most likely are because they are spears that are not in the traditional sense. Spears are gone but polearms are taking their place, they are basically the same weapons as spears and actually look more aesthetically pleasing in most cases than spears. I don't see why people are still angry about the compromise....

spears havent exactly been ruled out antirely. all todd said was that they did not include them as a skill. meaning we may have spears (by his tone it sounded like we wont) and if they happen to make an appearance it will be in the two handed weapon skill

any ways, he said that they hadn't included it so far, but all that means is that if they have enough time they'll start adding more and more weapons. since they are not the most complicated part of making these games.