Some people have a penchant for declaring things 'non lore', to give credibility to their argument.


Spears are lore.
Read 2920 again, and the technique Vivec used there to win a battle.. with spears.

Well honestly those expecting spears were setting themselves up for disappointment, there was no reason to believe that spears would actually make it into the game other than blind hope.

But I am not quite up to date on the latest Skyrim news but has it been confirmed that polearms will make it into the game? I must say that is a lot better than what I expected, while I would have liked to see spears make a return you gotta take what you can get and polearms arent too bad.

Obviously you may have to parry it to sidestep it and get inside (or underrun as you call it. Don't know English isn't my first language), but In games that is generally represented by simple sidestepping. (We're still talking about how it would be in game here) Once through the maximum range they can use it as a stuff if they like, but a blade is much more suited for that range, so the tide has turned. Unlike Oblivion one can't run backwards now, so it's a good disadvantage.

You could say the same about some certain swords, warhammers, and maces (Goldbrand, Voldenrung, and Mace of Molag Bal are good examples). So, I guess if we were to go by that logic, then swords, warhammers, and maces wouldn't be in the game.

Again, it's a different game, so it doesn't have to be that way.

They had to change the mechanics of how swords, axes, maces, bows, and every other weapon works, so what makes you think they can't mess around with spears as well? And if they can implement other polearms correctly and properly balanced, then how can they not do so with spears?

The rest of that paragraph is just silly (I know I've been saying that a lot tonight, but it's true), so I'm not even going to bother arguing against it. Well, except for the part about other polearms, which I already said I agree with you on.

There are plenty of ways to fix issues, and Bethesda has like 9 months left figure out how, so development time is definitely not in any shortage whatsoever.

That's just not true. The reason spears populated the rank and file was, because they were cheap. The spear is extremely versatile weapon, it can be used at any range. The Gauls would often use spears for one on one combat. German spearman and British lancers were well known for there formability as well. Ofcourse you need not look any further ancient Greek culture and Asian culture. I'm a spearman, converted swordsman, the weapon is just overpowered. :biggrin: It's attack range can keep an opponent beyond attacking distance. You can counter an opponent before he can even finish his attack.
In essence it has the superior defensive abilities of the staff and an offensive ability superior to most archaic weapons (not including the bow).

As for spears in Skyrim, I'll say what I always said. If Beth can't do them justice, best not include them.

While the good old rule of "don't bring a staff into a sword fight" still holds true, I just wanted to point out that "sidestepping" the spear is neither the best method to deal with them (really: breaking them is), nor does it make the spear bearer defenceless.

no. the op seems fairly convenced allthough until now, no one else has really said: there won't be spears but there will be pole arms. but to answer the question, no pole arms are not confirmed.

Because Bethesda already tried that compromise in Oblivion, among others, and they got called out on it, and are doing it again.

It's not the spears fault that half the people at Bethesda can't design certain game elements (ie ladders).

You know how you balance spears? You make them fragile. You make them have an attack distance that is range dependent, ie 2-6 feet. If someone gets inside that 2 foot range, you can no longer thrust at that, at best you could hit them like with a club and do the least damage of any weapon in the game.

Is that so hard Bethesda? Or do you just like making people angry by making stupid and illogical choices?

I do not see why people think spears would be over powered in 1 v 1 combat. Spears were used against enemies commited to a point of direction (cavalry), or behind a line of shield defense. The spear itself commits the user to a single focused point of impact which can be parried/blocked easily due to the leverage being greater at the target's end or just dodged because it is easy to avoid the straight path of the weapon. Swords, maces, halbreds use an arc trajectory that is much harder to avoid or parry because the direction of the attack can follow a target in more directions. Does that make sense? Without a distraction or a target committed to a path of motion using a spear puts you at a disadvantage. In a larger scale battles I could see using a spear to great effect on targets not actively engaging you. The whole concept that the spear would not allow an opponent any room for retaliation is flawed. I forgot to mention that a prodding motion also puts the user in a committed path straight at their target, that could be exploited as well, because of the absence of lateral motion. *EDIT* The lack of lateral motion means it takes less effort to to push the attack aside... like with any thrusting weapon.

Am I completely mistaken, or does my reasoning make any sense?

For it to be used in a versatile manner, it's only useful one, it would need to be a very complex weapon to use in a TES game, maybe in it's own game?

And we're not talking about lances, horses aren't even confirmed.

IMO even in real life if one creates the opening to close the distance it probably means the person with the spear is open to a shot and they're probably not in the best balance from the other guy's parry/hit, and it takes very little time to finish that. So in such a case, although not defenseless in theory, the outcome would probably be for the guy who has the sword (IMO again). But I'm focusing more on whether it can have disadvantages in a game to be honest. The whole, breaking the spear it certainly sounds like a great way to deal with a spear in real life, but would be pretty hard to implement in a game IMO. Spear could have less durability though. That sounds reasonable.

I think it makes perfect sense. Probably one of the most logical and correct posts I've seen on these boards that defends spears. :thumbsup:

That's a common misconception. The spear is a thrusting weapon, but it can be used in a variety ways. It's like saying you can only chop with a katana. Most spear practioners use their spears like a staff. With complex sweeps and counters. Though we train day and night on perfecting our thrust. At two meters a spear can kill you without your awareness.

To other comments about breaking a spear, cutting a moving hardened staff is near impossible. The only way you can cut through a spear or staff is if I'm holding stiff or it's stuck in a surface. (two things spearman avoid at all cost)

Spears can "slash" fairly well, but much like a dagger they cannot "chop" as they don't have the mass and tensile strength necessary for that kind of damage.

And while I'm sure a spear in real life does not break all the time, it certainly must break more often than say, a sword forged of steel. And since steel swords in ES break after what, 200, 400 swings? A spear would have to break twice as often as that, so quite an unrealistic amount, but an amount that is balanced.

You mean a bladed spear? It would behave like other pole-arms then, and would be put into that category... I was talking about a pure "spear" and not a modified pole-arm hybrid. The discussions about pole-arms would take a whole different thread.

I don't mean to brag but I think most of my predictions as to where Beth is coming from have been pretty accurate (after seeing what Howard ends up talking about in subsequent interviews), so I'll try my hand at why spears won't be included. My guess for why they are not included is that they don't like how the actual fighting works with a spear. Basically, fighting something with a spear is much different than doing so with a sword or axe, and I think their ai hasn't improved enough to make the gameplay rewarding, even if they could make better spear animations. If you look at the video of spears in Morrowind, you could just keep an enemy at bay. What remains constant from Morrowind to Skyrim is how enemies approach you. They don't dart and flank you in ways that would counteract a spear-wielding player. So spear combat would still end up being similar to the "poking with chopsticks" that Howard has said he didn't like about old combat. Their entire combat system just isn't suited to it. I may be wrong about this, but I don't think they are confident that they could design a "visceral" combat system with a spear. Back in Morrowind days, the combat was very similar across all weapons, so the huge variety in weapons didn't really require that much tweaking to the overall "feel" of combat. Everything they like about their new system (the staggering, brutishness) doesn't translate well to holding a spear which jabs from afar. I bet they have had demo's of them ingame and just didn't feel it had a good quality of gameplay. If there came a time where the AI could try darting around you and you could swing your spear, jabbing and lifting, etc in some epic duel, I think they would be all over the idea. Right now I think they feel like they can make much better sword combat than spear combat.

There's really no reason to not have spears. They are in New Vegas.

Agreed. Though the naginata has an intense cut, but that doesn't count :biggrin: Though I was talking about previous post about how to combat a spear. (all quote next time)


No I meant a standard spear. I trained day and nigh,t for years, getting the precision down, but I can use a spear to slash. I don't own a modified spear.

Though in a video game presentation (usually narrowed) of spear combat, you earlier quote would balance quite well I think.

This reminds me of the whole bow thing in NV speculation.

personally i think its ridiculous to say that spears are not in, but halberds are.

spears are just the most basic form of halberd, they are pretty much the same weapon but just used in different ways.

That is how you set yourself up for disappointment and is the reason so many people are upset about features in Oblivion. I think you should relax on the spear issue until Beth feels confident enough to give us a straightforward answer.

Hi, I am new to the forums and am just getting back to the elder scrolls universe after a few years.

Ive got to say It's been a long while since ive played and i still think that morrowind is my favorite of the series. A major reason was because spears were in and a lot of fun to use (at least for me). Most other people that ive talked to laughed saying spears svck, but thats prally just cause they are powergamers. I use spears because besides daggers, they are the only fun weapon for me to use. What i think is that they should definitely be in but instead we got dual wielding which is completely ridiculous. Spears happened to be an actual extremly used and prevalent weapon all throughout time. It was awesome that they were in morrowind. Then oblivion comes along and they reduced half the skills and instead made two weapon skills and one hand to hand skill. How are fists going to hurt platemail armor and a shield. It doesnt make sense and never will. And now they are adding dual wielding but still not bringing back spears. I hope i dont sound too blunt but it seems like bethesda is going down the wrong path. Dual wielding doesnt work in a fight, its too offensive and a guy with a twohanded sword or shield will kill them in a second. There has never been recorded people that used it in real life. All in the movies. Daggers i can at least see as being partially useful, although marginally only to cut someone's throat from behind. People want to use hand to hand combat now, this might work in fallout 3 due to the powerfist but when would that be useful to go against platemail armor. I predict the next weapon class will be claws.

On another note, i like the perk system which was a good idea to put in. This will make leveling seem more fun as you can play how you will make your character. I think daggers are going to be sick as well, like old school baldurs gate 2 where thieves can be deadly in the right situations. Bows have some good enhancements. As for the story, i could care less as all stories from elder scrolls are good and what makes the game so cool is that you can get lost in the world.

I think spears are a viable means of combat, but look at the setting we're in now. The wilds of Skyrim. The landscape itself is too harsh and rugged to be able to utilize spear to their full advantage. I think they've considered spears as an option, but they've decided against it. Or maybe they haven't really considered it since Morrowind, keeping them at the side until a title that could use them is put into play, like maybe Valenwood, or Elsewyre. I can imagine the spears would be cool for the vast forests of those lands. Although, saying that, there are gonna be pretty dense forests in Skyrim from what the devs say. Which is awesome to the max. I dunno, I think spears will make a stand at some point in the future, but for now, the Nords are quite just bashing peoples faces in with battle-axes and hammers.

Either way, I cannot wait for the end result........^ ^

Despite their main difference is the 'head' of the pole, the weight of the halberd results in a different combat style than a speedier pole/spear, IMO it's logical to not include both.

Your probably right. Well, hopefully they use them in the next one. Im not really that annoyed since hey ive got morrowind for spears. Still, would like them. Are valenwood and elsewyre where khagits are from and argonians? Im a little rusty on my lore. I know skyrim is where nords are from. Hammerfell are where redguards are. Morrowind-dark elves. Oblivion-imperials, obvious. I dont know, Ive really got to get into reading about the elder scrolls universe, are there any books? I dont read often but if there is something cool ill give it a shot. For some i find the beast races of this game to be interesting.