Please remember to differentiate between "thrusting spears" and "throwing spears".


And that, hunting with thrusting spears generally involved large groups herding animals into traps, where they could be poked to death (one group scaring the animals towards another group, or into a blind canyon/etc).

However they want to implement them, spears full-stop. Spears in the context of the world make sense, I don't care how they make it in. I just think the reasons for not implementing them are bs, especially when they are so damned easy to add and are a fairly popular weapon.

Look, I would want to see some kind of throwing weapons implemented into the game, like javelins or throwing axes. Spears would also be a cool addition as long as they made them feel cool in combat.

But what I dont want is Bethesda to try to add lots of random [censored] we fans like and then either fail to fix/add core game content and stuff that matters for the game's experience. Or, heaven forbid, them failing to deliver Skyrim on time.

Why is everyone obsessed with spears? I'm sorry that you can't be Leonidus (spelling?) and stab a few Persians. Seriously, it's just a stick with a blade at the end. BUT THATS WHAT MAKES IT SO COOL.

No. I'd rather have Beth put their development time into fleshing out the combat system they have already instead of adding a pointless weapon.

/rant over

Oh I agree, some of the suggestions on the forum make me laugh pretty hard, but this would literally take an afternoon to do the art for (I'm not a programmer). There are lots of things that make up a fantasy world, in every movie I can think of there is at least a spear in the background somewhere. Spears were everywhere throughout history and I think they need to be added.

This isn't a dealbreaker for me, I just haven't heard a single legitimate reason as to why they aren't in already.

2nd:ed

Stop doing that, I could argue that one-handed axes are a pointless weapon, yet they are in. That's a [censored] argument.

The primary weapon of the Viking fighters was the spear. Lots of spears from that age have been found, warriors were burried with them.

Spears are as Nordic as sea travel. I'd rather get rid of two handed swords which make no sense at all in that setting, or the oversized maces we have seen.

Why not just make them alittle weaker then comparable weapons and the first swing is alittle slow to start, you have the bounus of being able to keep enemies at bay but if the block and get up closed you'll be at a disadvantage and get pushed back yourself?

I gotta figure as well that it's some sort of odd fad to need those weapons in the game. Some have even gone as far as to say they won't get the game if they aren't in... Rofl. That's a blatant lie.

Yeah, swords are pretty pointless too. And maces. And bows. Don't forget magic. We should only have spears.

All humor aside, it's just not a big deal. So what spears are not in. Will it hurt your immershun? I don't see why not having spears is a deal breaker to some people (I'm not sayng it's a deal breaker to you, unless it is.)

And shields!?! I mean, who really needs shields? And that pesky magic thingy... Ohh also swords, maces and bows, good riddance!

To commemorate this event, I hereby rename The Elder Scrolls series to "The Chuck Norris Series".

And Spec, yes they did use spears. They also used axes. They also used bows, and swords, and boats.
So we need to add spears and boats to the combat system in Skyrim hence? Will "Sailing" be a warrior skill then?

EDIT: Just noticed that "TheFriendlyBear" made a similar rant, funny coincidence .

Stop putting words in my mouth, once again the TES community proves itself to be one of the worst on the web (yeah you guys actually have a reputation).

"immershun" [censored], yes it does I guess, I can live without it, but hey, I was wondering.

I never said this was a dealbreaker, this is a day one purchase. I am wondering why the hell spears aren't in, why they didn't "make the cut," which implies they were once in or being considered.

EDIT: [censored] this I give up, once again many of you prove you are incapable of discussion. Just attacking people, making people out to be less informed than you and going on silly rants with no real point. Or if you're shish, just agreeing with people who don't really add anything to the conversation.

Swords/axes/maces are all pretty simple to do with the same basic animations. So, once you have a set of one-handed attack animation set, it's not hard to include all those weapons.


:shrug:

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Someone said "I don't want them to waste resources on lots of little things if it means they don't get the major stuff done right".

I agree. As I said in response to someone saying "more options is always better" in another thread..... more options isn't always better. I'd rather have a game with less features that are really well polished, than one with lots of halfway-done features.

-------

I still wonder, if spears are so darn important, why haven't the modders done more to fix this lack in Oblivion? (I mean, they've done some amazingly crazy stuff, really pushed animations & OBSE scripting to the limits.

I don't know, maybe read the rest of the thread

*pulls hair out*

I'll say now I agree that it would be cool, but it isn't a dealbreaker.

That part is simply just not true. Let's talk thrusting spears. A two handed weapon that can't use any of the animations of a claymore or a warhammer because you very rarely sweep a spear. That is 1-3 animations, depending on how varied the attacks are. Most swords in Oblivion just had a basic left and right motion for swinging. We also need a sheathing and unsheathing animation. If there are power attacks that is 4-5 animations for them (walking in any of the 4 main directions, and possibly a stationary one. It might just use the forward power attack animation though). Then we need a block animation, and a stagger animation. Now take that number (anywhere from 9 to 12) and double it, because they don't use the same animations for 1st and 3rd person because the weapon is moved to where you can see it better in 1st person and you just see things differently. 18-24 animations on normal combat.

Now think about spending time making sure collision was right on each of those animations. Chances are, unless you are really lucky or some kind of animating deity there will be tweaks to be done. Now, lets talk finishing moves. What did they say? A unique finishing move for each weapon on each creature? Oh dear. Well based on confirmed creatures (remember to double as animations aren't the same in 1st and 3rd person) we are getting up to 30+ animations minimum. Sure they could cut this number down by removing power attacks completely or making the power attack a spear throw (which would be awesome). Still a LOT of animations.

Now lets talk Spear models and textures. If we assume the same weapon styles as Oblivion you get Iron, Steel, Silver, Elven, Daedric, Dwemer, Glass and Ebony, plus the ones like Fine Iron that have the same models and textures as their prefix-free counterpart. Minimum of 8 models and unique textures. Then you have to follow the old rule "If there is weapon X, there will be a magic version with a unique model and texture.

So as for the models and textures, they could possibly be done in a day. I'm not an artist so I don't know how good the guys at BGS are at cranking out weapons quickly. But animations are still art, and are a lot harder to put in the game because they have to look good. All of this has to be done after or in tandem with programming spears into the engine and the game itself. Then comes the endless balancing, bug fixing, distributing spears into NPC inventories, stores, and loot tables. It isn't easy to do, but it would be nice to see. Personally I want throwing weapons so I can make some cool smoke bombs, flash grenades, and stuff like that.

Wow, you really put a lot of thought into this... And you're making perfect sense.

Horse Armor < Spears

I think the only problem with adding spears is the block animation (without shield). With blunt and slashing weapons, you can make different attacking animations from right or left sides and the animation needed to block those attacks realistically, is the same, putting your weapon vertically in front of you. In the case of thrusting attacks this animations seems totally unrealistic. This way they should add a different animation for blocking spear attacks. As the only animation with enough realism level would be a timed one where you hit the spear at a side in the exact moment it's about to hit you, the requirements for making it realistic are too high compared with other weapons.

So the deal is that spear requires too much effort for the same result.

I am not saying that I think like that (the static low block used in M&B is OK for me). I'm only saying that I think this is the reason why Bethesda decided not to include spears in Oblivion and aparently in Skyrim.

I tend to agree with the direction this post is currently heading- The issue is priority, not balance. Spears could be balanced in many different ways, we've established that. Spears could have plenty of animations, a true spearman wielding his weapon with 2 hands does a lot more than just thrust. I believe that the issue is simply that Beth probably wants to focus on more vital aspects of the game first before constructing a realistic, smooth spear system from scratch. Also, spears so far have not made the cut- If Beth gets ahead of schedule in some way, they may seriously consider adding in spears.

Just wanna point out that the game is in its very late development stage. What's left now (I think), is just bug-testing, improvement of some graphics (Todd said that is one of the latest things they do) while converting things to PC, some small new things or improvements here and there. But spears is something pretty major.
They would have to make many new models (not the biggest issue), and many many animations (probably the biggest and most time-consuming issue) and then add them in the game properly (time-consuming as well).
So... if spears aren't in already, outlook is not too good. Todd didn't seem too eager about it in the podcast either, did he?
He did seem more eager about horse mounts, so let's hope that turns out really good instead.

I dont know why spears are that big a deal. I would like to see the extra weapon added but the only time I realize that its not there is when I come to these boards. Also, the whole basis to why Brood even wanted spears in the game is because Nordic people in our world used them. The Elder Scrolls is NOT related to our world it is a completely DIFFERENT time and world. It does NOT have to follow the timeline and similarities found in our world experiences. Again I would like to see them, but its issue #4672 on my list of things that are imortant.

First off, I'd just like to say that I'm no expert, and I'm absolutely positive that Bethesda developers know all about spears, certainly more than I know. In the end we'll all have to respect their decision on the matter of how they want to include or exclude spears from Tamriel. This is after all their creative product, not ours.
Lets go through the pros and cons of spears.

Pros.

• You gain a serious amount of reach.
  
• Spears without hooks will deal less damage but be more reliable in a situation where you are faced with more than one enemy.
  
• Spears can counter a charging enemy very well if the spear is jammed up to a surface, as to allow the momentum of the enemy to be forced unto the spear.
  
• A spear lodged into an enemy will be irretrievable but it will slow the foe down, you can imagine how hard it will be to move around with a spear in your body, especially in confined areas.
  
• The spear could prevent your dead enemy from rolling down a hill with precious loot on his body, if the spear is lodged in him.
  
• You can put a cloth soaked in pitch, oil or animal fat on the tip of your spear and light it on fire to illuminate dark areas. You can also use it to either burn your enemies or their housing if they are asleep (tent, wooden huts) to send them running out in panic, setting up for a very effective ambush.
  
• Some spears can be thrown as well as used in melee.
  
• If a hook-tipped throwing spear is thrown at an enemy and misses the enemy but strikes into the ground the enemy may attempt to dislodge it but may have difficulties doing so due to the hook, you can use this opportunity to sprint up to the enemy and strike at his back.
  
• Spears can be used as an extension of your body in order to reach places you normally would not for example... Poke a switch that you can't reach. Pluck up a solid object that is out of your reach by sticking it on your spear or catching it with the hook of your spear. Pole vault across a gap or up onto a surface normally unreachable. Dish out some justice to a thief that has jumped up onto a roof thinking he has reached safety only to be poked to death by a long spear.
  
• Spears are arguably more versatile than any sword, axe, bow or mace, not only in combat but out of combat as well.

Cons

• If your spear were to impale a very heavy and well sized enemy (horse, troll or something with a big mass) charging towards you, your spear might lodge itself so deep into the body you simply couldn't get it back in the middle of combat, or even after emerging victorious it might even be stuck so deep you might have to preform postmortem surgery to retrieve it, and lets not forget your enemy might fall down a chasm with his spear lodged in him.
  
• Spears with hooks on their point will have a tendency to get stuck the bodies of enemies, making them difficult retrieve, and very difficult to use with a living (or dead) enemy stuck on it.
  
• Spears penetrate armor, and require great strength or precision of the user and also need to be composed of quality materials in order to fully penetrate quality armor, I imagine spears would have no effect on mechanical units.
  
• A spear can be very unwieldy in confined areas (caves, indoors, tightly grown forests), A spear with hooks could get stuck in a bush or tree.
  
• Depending on the length of the spear, the usefulness will be compromised as the enemy advances closer to you. The longer the spear the more difficult it will be to use in close combat. The shorter the spear, the more vulnerable you will be.
  
• A spear is much more prone to breaking than any axe, sword or mace.
  
• A spear thrown at the enemy doesn't hit properly, a clever enemy will know to pick up the spear and use it against you.

How to put spears into the game.

Spears are some of the most varied weapons in the world, they vary greatly in shape and size and functionality, there are many different types of spears and they can all be used in their own way, even in ways not originally intended, maybe Bethesda can figure out some new way of using spears.
So lets go through the various generic types of spears:
Thrown spears, generally anywhere between the full length of it's wielder to about three fourths of it's wielder.
Hunting spears, a man sized spear.
Spears intended for military use (extremely long spears used in phalanx/spear-wall formations)
Melee spears (very small spears; check out the African "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zulu_warrior.jpg" or "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assegai")

Odin (norse god) had a mythical spear named http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gungnir, said to always hit it's target. Odin was eaten by Fenrir at ragnarok a battle in which he wielded Gungnir, maybe if he had used a sword he'd be able to cut his way out of his stomach, who knows. Odin has been depicted using the spear as a thrown weapon and while on horseback. Spears do have a place in nordic culture and in european culture, it would be fun to see them come to life in The Elder Scrolls. Maybe the developers have simply made up their minds that spears are not a part of Tamriel and never will be. But I hope that I have at least convinced you all that spears are a very fickle weapon and only ever "overpowered" if in the right hands and the right place and used against the right target. Having said that, I will admit that I am no expert nor am I a spearwielder in real life or a historian. And it's not like Bethesda needs to copy-paste things from nordic culture into the game. This is Tamriel and even things that have nothing to do with norse culture are going to be in the game, so they could decide to go with a african/arabic type of short melee-spear with a nordic design which I wouldn't mind at all, A four-bladed or three-bladed assegai could have a design to allow for some runes to be engraved in the blades of the tip. And you can also think of culture as just being human culture instead of nordic, arabic, african, islamic or whatever. I don't see a reason why a viking blacksmith wouldn't have armed his fellow troops with a http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Pilum.jpg/400px-Pilum.jpg or assegai or http://www.chinatown-shop.com/images/arm_306.jpg for any other reason that he coincidentally did not think of it. I guess however that people will always stamp it as Chinese, Roman, African or Nordic because of their national pride.

Last words.

But seriously speaking, the spear would be a very neat addition to Tamriel seeing as it is so peculiar and versatile, and I can certainly imagine many reasons why as not to include it, but the reasons to actually include spears far outweigh the reasons not to include spears.
I imagine spears as a weapon would be extremely tricky to put into the game not only from a balancing point of view but also from a programming point of view and making the art and animations too as mentioned by Badprenup. fighting with a spear is (or can be) so much different than fighting with any other weapon that a very own combat system might be required to incorporate the spear into the game. We also have to consider that they might not want to introduce spears to the game as they might become the most entertaining weapons in the game and may result in everyone playing with spear-characters all the time and everywhere. We all know Bethesda to be game-developers that always blow your mind with every new game they make with new intricacies in the game on every front of game developing process ranging between graphics, programming, story, balancing and making all of it fit nicely together. Understandably a varied piece of equipment like the spear could be extremely difficult to add into the mix, especially knowing how Bethesda would strive for perfecting the spears' place in Tamriel. I also wonder if Bethesda is skeptical to include such a horrifying weapon in the game because of its' potentially brutal uses. I would not be surprised if the most gutwrenching finishing moves were those of a spear. I can imagine myself playing the role of the maniacal viking brute running along the rugged forests of Skyrim and I happen to stumble upon a skulk of foxes, I impale the father on my spear and continue to slaughter the rest of the family, laughing like a maniac as I chase down the remainder of the family by whacking them with the corpse of their father one by one and then creating a family-sized (irony intended) shish-kebab of foxes to roast on a fire as the night sinks in. (this is of course fantasy, please don't be offended )

Anyways, I hope that my post here will make a difference, and hope that the rest of the community will share their, hopefully, positive feedback.
Maybe we'll be able to convince the devs' that spears are worth including.

I give spears two thumbs up any day of the week.

Maybe because they're one of the most ancient and powerful weapons in history, used by military forces around the world as their bread and butter weapons?

Yeah.... a cheap and simple weapon (Pointy Stick?) that you could give to a bunch of serfs/peasants/conscripts and say "stand in a big block over there. If horses charge you, everyone point your spears towards them and brace the back end on the ground".

(Unlike, say, swords. Which were expensive to make and took alot of training to be useful with.)



Don't really get the romanticizing/nostalgia about pointy sticks.