I agree as well weakness is as much of a pert in rpg's as strengths.
I think each person who has an issue with s.p.e.c.i.a.l points but not the system. Is used to FO3 where it was the skills and perks that where the problem. And see stats as no more than a basis on which to build a character anyway they chose. Rather then see it as the basic metheod of telling you what you are good at in general. Thus a 8 agility tagged sneak character is automaticly going to be better at firearms even if not tagged. Then a low agility would be.
So they want to be fair to good at everything at the start to give more options later on. Whereas we would like to build a character with some flaws and see where it will lead us.
FO1&2 had roughly the same skill point issue as 3 as you can end up being good at everything by the end. And some of the perks were uber powerful as well, by the end I was auto killing everything. But they felt unlike FO3 you were earning something. And this is a wrong view imo as fallout 3 maxed out your level earlier because the map was huge and had a massive amount of monsters compared to 1&2 so naturally you would level up faster in an open world.
But they did go wrong with skill books. I like bobbleheads however so I have no complaints about them other then they should have been quest perks instead.

You're right, but in FO1&2 it's generally end game, in 3 it's probably less than halfway to completion.
Now that you mention it, the amazingly fast levelling is a problem aswell. And as you've pointed out skill books, the sheer number of them present in game is quite laughable now that I think about it. It's almost like they were encouraging god builds.

Don't know how this happened.

Some people have a skewed perspective of SPECIAL.

The descriptions from Fallout 1 and 2 are:

1 - Very Bad
2 - Bad
3 - Poor
4 - Fair
5 - Average
6 - Good
7 - Very Good
8 - Great
9 - Excellent
10 - Heroic

So anything below 4 is where it is low. 5 or 6 isn't very low, it's pretty good. Anything above that is just fine if you're trying to specialize in it. It's ok to put some things at 4 if you want something else higher.

Indeed, and we've gotten people complaining that 4 & 5 is a weakness.

However, at the same time we have people complaining that anything above a 6 or 7 is 'too much to ask' or 'makes the character a god'. This is simply not the case, since it is the combination of SPECIAL, Skills, and Perks that makes for 'godliness' rather than any one of the three by itself.

While I am opposed to the idea of high SPECIAL across the board, since if it can be done it will be done for every character, at the same time there is something to be said for the ability to increase SPECIAL to some extent since over the course of a characters career odds are very good that said character will go through events that lead to such improvements.

Here's an example of why high SPECIAL, in and of itself, does not make a 'god' character:

My FO3 game is currently modded such that it is possible for me to start with 10s across the board, I did this for experimental purposes to minimize the variables while testing various scenarios. Upon reaching the 10th birthday scene in the intro quest, and receiving the Pip-Boy, a check of my skills shows them to be at 27 across the board. While that is high for level one, since a more realistic average would be 19-20, in terms of effectiveness it's actually pretty poor. Assuming I was able to skip perks and additions to skills, at level 30 this same character would be in a world of hurt due to being far below the skill levels necessary for high-end content.

Now, an actual FO3 L30 character is effectively a combination of Ares and Jesus (or Ares and Satan, depending on one's Karma ) , however that cannot be attributed solely to SPECIAL since without certain perks and high skills you won't be able to kill, pick, hack into, or talk your way into/out of, anything of any consequence, and as a result you won't qualify for the aforementioned titles.

No some of us are saying having 5 SPECIALs above 6 or 7 is too much. Not just 1. And yes while it is not special alone, having higher SPECIAL lvls paves the way for higher skills and better perks, as many of the upper end perks required higher special, and having higher INT special, leads to more skill points. So really limiting SPECIAL would lead to a reduction is epic perks, and super high skills. But it is also bad that there were 20-25 skill books for each skill. That is sad. Especially if you have comprehension. Raise each skill to 50 and your good, just read the rest of the way. -_-

Fwiw I agree that a lot of really high SPECIALs can be a bad thing, however that does depend on the overall character development system. You're right that I may have overstated a bit, but that was the impression I got.

I don't think it necessarily follows that a reduction in how many top-end SPECIAL scores one can get equates to a reduction in epic perks, since the way to limit those is simply not include them. IMO that would be a good thing, since I consider any perk being a 'must-have' to be bad design. This is especially true if the intent is to make all perks worth taking, and they really should be since there is no point in including perks nobody wants to take, especially with a more limited number of selections.

It also does not follow that SPECIAL limits directly translates into a more limited number of very high skills, since, as you stated, that depends far more on the quantity and efficacy of 'external' sources- perks, books, whatever. This is so because even if we use the FO1 and 2 method of SPECIAL influence on skill values any one point in an attribute is at most 3 points in a skill, and in the long run that's not all that significant given that capping out a skill is not a necessity. It is true that capping out a skill is often highly desirable, however it has never been mandatory that one do so; Repair in FO3 is a possible exception to this, due to the combination of ridiculous wear rates and damage or protection being tied to condition.

While the specials of 10 at level one won't be a god character at level 30, with no changes to the skills, we need to remember what those 10 will give:

Each tagged Skill will be at 42... at level one. You immedately start out with 300 health (it's telling how much this is when you consider my level 30 character barely beats 500...) You immedately get +5 melee damage, a 10% chance of criticaling, an extra +5 to all skills (thus bringing your tagged skills to 47, and other skills to 32), and 85 action points. You also have +45% poision resistance, and +18% radiation resistance. At each level you get 20 skillpoints. This is all at level 1, by the way, without chems or armor or anything else.

Yes, you're not a god... but nothing the wasteland throws at you (aside from the high-end encounters) at level 1 will really stand a chance against you either. Specials do have a significant impact on the starting abilities of the player; and having high specials in all stats will lead to a god-type character.

Exactly. Thus bringing us back to, 40 is plenty, any more leads to a god character.

It is the same amount as we had in FO3, all of your special starts at 5 and you get 5 more points to choose. and you can have a good strengths with 40.
this is my most common set up.
Str-5
Per-5
End-5
Cha-6
Int-8
Agi-6
Luc-5

and the only one that is usefull when highest is Intelligence since it gives you more skill points.

I can argue with you about Intelligence- I could say that luck is the most useful- you get better loot from the tables, +10% chance to critical, and +5 to all skills once it's maxed. Or I could say perception is the most useful, because your compass will show a red tick before that tick is aware of you. Or I could say strength is, because of how much stuff you can carry. Or Agility with it's bonus to AP. Or Endurance with it's bonus to health. Or Charisma since, hey, if you're good enough, you can talk people out of shooting you.

Truith is, each stat is equally important; it just depends on what's more important to you. Also skillpoints don't really matter once you hit the cap... which will occur roughly midway through the game.

No, it doesn't. to get 10 in all Attributes is a total of 70 points. Default start is 35, with 5 additional being awarded during the creation process (in FO3's case, at the start of the Vault 101 sequence). That still leaves one 30 points short of fully maxed-out, which leaves room for increases without creating a 'godly' character.

As for Tag skills: you get 3 of them, and even though with 10s at the start those would be at 42 that's still hardly godlike. I do realize that in FO3 the only things you will fight at L1 are radroaches and a few security guards, however upon getting out and reaching level 2 you will still be quite under-equipped and Raiders are a couple of steps up from V101 Security Guards.

You are also assuming FO3 levels of health calculation, and I have a feeling that will not be the case given that Obsidian tends to be rather parsimonious with HP grants- I would expect a character starting with 10 END in F:NV to have somewhere closer to 150HP, which would be far from overpowering given the likely lack of easily obtainable high-end armor to pair with it.

That said, I do agree that having full 10s from the start is a bit much. I never claimed it wasn't, I was merely showing how that, by itself, is not sufficient to claim 'god' status. Comparing it to initial opposition is not really a proper measure, given that traditionally the 'beginner' areas tend to have severely underpowered foes in order to keep a new player and/or character from getting summarily obliterated. Thus, it needs to be viewed against opposition as a whole since in a 'free-roam'-style game it is quite possible to run into critters meant for a L15 character while still at L2 or 3.

Now, just how much of an advantage one's tag skills being in the low 40s at start actually confers would depend almost entirely on the quality of the 'starter' opposition- assuming it is of low quality (and it likely is) it could be anything from a slight to a substantial advantage, however if the opposition is of at least decent quality it could be very handy indeed. This also depends on whether or not weapon skills govern accuracy- if they do then a high base attribute can give a substantial early boost or only a small one, depending on how much influence each point of skill has.

Short version: while having all SPECIALs very high at the start is probably not a good idea, having them all high is not, in and of itself, the cause of 'godly' characters.

Stat increases during a game only work if the stats arnt capped. As soon as you cap the stats then stat increases during the game just make the characters too easy to make and too simular to one anouther.


If there are 3 strength increases in the game then 7 8 9 and 10 starting strength actualy is strongest, idiot, idiot advanced, holy flaming moron

And that just made every character that much more the same as every other at the end of the game.

AND that is the problem with fallout even with 1-2 your characters tended to not be special enough by the end of the game reducing the real impact of playing the game multiple times with different characters.

i know new vegas is gonna be a good game, i'm not worried that a low SPECIAL is going to ruin the game, but 40 points really doesn't leave you room to have anything at 10, not without leaving every other stat a 5, so you really can only have on SPECIAL stat at a master level and none of the rest are even above average, it seems that maybe 5 more points would at least give you the option to have a couple really high specials and the rest would still be average, not 7 or 8 unless you tanked a stat. which sounds fine to me, i agree the amount of points we had in fallout 3 was way too much, but SPECIAL stats alone don't make a character a "god" its perks and skills also. 40 will work obviously, there is still going to be ways to make a powerfull character, i know i'll master new vegas just like i did fallout 3 and oblivion, not gonna be any different. but i think a 3 to 5 point increase after the intitial set up isn't really unreasonable. it seems dull to keep the special so low and for the entire game.

No, you don't need to have anything in your SPECIAL at ten, and you already can have a few powerful stats with the rest average, I've already given you an example of this.
What the hell is the point of your continued posting on a discussion forum if you are too ignorant to listen to anybody else and continue saying the same thing over and over again? As somebody has pointed out you aren't even capable of discussion.


...Oh and congratulations for "mastering" oblivion, I hope that makes you feel special.

Honestly westoftherockies, it's not going to be game-breaking, it's going to make builds more specific and meaningful. If you want to use the PGM so much then put 8 into strength and use it. And if you want to put your stats elsewhere, then you're effectiveness will just have to suffer. Now for the good of everyone here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL1lfSzgcAw

I swear youtube is filled up with more and more usefull things every day. -_-

But yea BreadWinner is right. If you want ot master a special, at 10, some other area must be damaged, or weakened.

Holy crap. Back off. I'd say the OP has the right to try to persuade people that do nothing but try to nerf our characters that 40 points isn't enough. You're the ones that don't seem to listen to anything other than "Yes!!!! NERF IT!!!!". Character progression just blows fat donkey balls if you don't actually progress, which is what you're saying is fine. Having the same stats through the entire course of the game svcks. What exactly do you consider powerful? From the looks of it that would be around seven. What's average to you? 4? We need around 45 points. That's 15 points less than what we got in Fallout 3 and that would be just fine. Happy?

Haha. First off, we never said 7 was powerful. 9 and 10 is powerful. And you will progress. Thats the point of gaining levels, and increasing your skill points. We just dont want it to be by nearly as much. You act like we are like you should start with 40 SPECIAL and like 150 total skill points, and NEVER GAIN ANY AT ALL! So your exactly as strong at lvl 1 as you are at 30. No that is NOT what we are saying. So way to listen to us, while yelling at us, for not listening to you... :facepalm:

Let's try to be civil, guys.


I would consider 8-10 to be a very good score for any SPECIAL stat. I also don't think there's anything wrong with having a 3 or 4 in some stats. If that were gamebreaking then we should just get rid of anything under 5 and make the range from 1-6, with a 1 representing a 5, but that would be dumb. What I'd really like to see is 40 points to start with some opportunities to raise a couple of them by 1 or 2 throughout the game. That way you could eventually end up with a total of 45 potentially, but you couldn't start with that many.

The irony in his post beginning with "Holy crap. Back Off." and then progressing as it did has caused my brain to implode. This is something as a problem as an imploded brain is a lot harder to piece back together than an exploded brain. I may require some assistance.

-That guy laying on the ground twitching...oh wait he stopped...uh oh

Woah woah woah, I made a perfectly civil point, the last comment was because of his constant bringing up of Bethesda RPGs.
To be honest I see SPECIAL as the basis of your character, their natural characteristics which shouldn't be changed. Skill points are how you progress and there will be plenty of them.
And seriously if you've been paying attention to this discussion you would know that a few other people and I have been coming up with actual points as well as examples and this fellow doesn't even acknowledge them and continues to spout his rubbish so yes, he obviously does not grasp the concept of discussion.

I find it slightly ironic that you begin with "Holy crap back off" only to then try and ridicule and make a mockery of the points I've given, and not even very accurately at that.

Likewise we have the right to criticise it. As well as remain unpersuaded by it.



Well when you provide a counter-claim and all the opposition does is repeat himself, it's quite difficult to move onto the next point. Plus it's more akin to "Keep it the same as FO1 and 2" if anything. But thanks for putting words in our mouths.



You'd know what that's like, wouldn't you. But I digress, SPECIAL isn't the only thing your character has to work with, you also increase your other stats and gain perks, you still progress. No one ever claimed that the character should be at a standstill the whole game.



4 is classed as 'fair', 5 is 'average'. If you don't go to 4 or below on any of your stats then you don't even have a weakness. I fail to see how you couldn't live with that.



No, we don't need more points, you want more points, yet extra points are unnecessary. There's been substantial refutation to OPs proposition, yet he has failed to counter-refute those claims, it's just boiled down to him saying he wants to use the 50. cal but he doesn't want to put his points into strength, and repeating that statement to pretty much that effect for most of the thread. And you've done no better to giving a good reason as to why the current amount of point distribution is not substantial enough. So far all you've done so far is shown you're afraid of having weaknesses to balance out your strengths.

thats what i'm saying, i think 40 to start with is ok, but we should at least have the chance to raise it by 5 points throughout the game so we can further specialize our character, i'm not saying we should have 60 or 70 points, but if 40 is all we had for the entire game, that does leave for a fairly low SPECIAL the entire game, at least have a few intense training perks available, obviously it would be at the expense of picking another perk, so if you took all 3 or 5 intense training perks thats 3 or however many other perks you wouldn't be taking, some of us are willing to give up a few perks in order to raise our SPECIAL stats a bit more, i'm more into SPECIAL stats than i am other perks, its just my personal preference. thats all