Sorry, minor annoyance in the real world :whistling:
But I stand by what I said about it adding replay value and a richer experience.

I'm just gonna leave http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/4/45062/1147864-status_indicator_large.jpg here.

Strength will be a soft requirement for weapons - you will still be able to use any weapon in the game, but the further your strength from the requirement, the wider the sway in guns and the slower the blows with melee. You could easily have a 6 strength character using the .50 cal. Now stop worrying.

got pulled right in, ha Softy?

So, basically, you're complaining that we can't be a jack of all trades? One of the big parts of RPGs is the character build. You have to create a build for the playstyle you chose.

not only will you not be a jack of all trades, it doesn't look like you'll be a jack of any trades, maybe one. its funny how some people think some of us want to be a jack of all trades, having a SPECIAL of all 10's still wouldn't make you a jack of all trades. you could theoretically have a very high SPECIAL and still not be a master of a lot of trades. fallout 3 just gave us too many skill points and ways to have lots of skill points each level, that could be fixed without taking away all the SPECIAL points. but if it is only 40 points for the entire game for a SPECIAL, unless there is the right game balance, a lot of people who played fallout 3 might be dissapointed, but we'll see how it actually ends up working out, but if you need an 8 strength just to use a 50 cal, and i know a lot of people want to use that, you're gonna have to use most of your left over points on your strength stat while leaving all the other stats pretty weak or just at 5 or 6, so 40 points doesn't really even let you specialize in anything.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but your math is a little off, 5x7=35.

So if you distribute 40 envenly you would have 5 at 6 and two at 5.

Honestly I think it should be 35 so that all would be 5 if distributed evenly. Then the gifted trait would give you 42, 6 across the board distributed evenly.

At 35 here is my build.

S-7
P-5
E-6
C-3
I-7
A-4
L-3

Completely acceptable start and if I can gain 5 to 10 more in the course of the game then when it's all said and done I'll still not have a superman or a jack of all trades character.

+10 posibilities
S-8___S-8___S-7
P-6___P-7___P-8
E-7___E-8___E-6
C-5___C-6___C-6
I-9____I-8____I-7
A-5___A-5___A-7
L-4___L-3___L-4

You can have strengths, you just can't end up being a Jack-of-all-trades like in Fallout 3. A person utilizing Small Guns would have a high Agility, Luck, and some leftover points into Strength; a Melee-only person would have a high Strength and Endurance, with leftovers going into Agility. A person using Explosives would have a high Perception, Agility, and leftover goes into strength or Endurance. All three of them have their specalizations, and their SPECIAL will reflect that. I wouldn't expect a guy who likes to crush his opponent with his Super Sledge to be an egghead, and I wouldn't expect the assassin character to benchpress 300 lbs- those aspects are not neccissary for their professions. In fact, I would expect the Super-Sledge guy to have a lower intelligence compared to the rest of his specials.

Also, having a 5 in a stat, as others have said, isn't low. To be classified as "low" it would need to be under three, just as a stat to be classified as high would need to be higher than seven. The 4-6 range is basically about average, on a 1-10 scale.

BTW- a 50 Cal is basically a weapon you'd want to use to hold down a position, not carry with you to run 'n gun. You need a high strength requirement to use it because *gasp* you're using it in a way it was never designed to be used- if it was meant for run 'n gun situations it would be made of lightweight materials, have a recoil damper, and a center of gravity between to the grip of the weapon and barrel for ease of use. Maybe it would come with a Body Harness to help support it. As it comes with none of these, it's not meant to be fired while carried.

Now that made me think - what if weapon sway is reduced when we stand still, or even crouch and thus stabilise our hold?
At any rate, I still think http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_Handling will be in. Would be the most logical choice - a trained everyday person (that is, S of 5, the absolutely mediocre) will be able to carry and use those 8 strength badass weapons in our world, too.

If you could have all the stats well above average then everyone will...so what would be the point of being able to lower them below 5? if you did that you might as well do away with levels 1,2 and 3 and make all the stats only go up to 7

40 points is enough, the whole idea of SPECIAL is that you can either specialise, or be jack of all trades and master of none

I'm going for a quick melee guy agile but spread even so.
FO3 S.P.E.C.I.A.L would be like this....

Str 6
perception 6
endurance 4
charisma 5
intelligence 6
agility 8
Luck 5

Not many weaknesses some strength in sneak and closing with the enemy. V.A.T.s to avoid heavy damage up close. With a good choice of perks and some chems I will have a very specialised character. But one that can spread out to add roleplaying talent of either Vegas and or plain FO background perks. So saying you will be a jack of no trades is a little wrong with this set up I can go in most directions I want, Drop a point or two and I can focus on combat exclusively, Or make more of a speech character all with out losing the core basis.

With traits depending if skilled is in then change it to this.

Str 6 or 7
perception 7
endurance 4
charisma 6 or 7
intelligence 6 or 7
agility 9
luck 6.

So I end up more focused or spread out for later choices.
So more points are not needed imo. Not saying I don't want more just I have always been happy with the system.
And stats have more effect now (I think) so lots higher ones will be as damaging as loads of high skills were in FO3.

That depends solely on how you build up your character.

And, as has been stated, the str requirements don't prevent you from using weapons.

I would say that for the stats that 5 is at worst top end human average and even the having them all at five makes your character above average with his/her stats. Being able to put every stat up to at least 7 I would say basically makes for a less interesting character, as at least half the fun is playing a character with flaws and having them all at 7 can be viewed as you're basically at least a minor demi-deity stat wise.

I've played RPG's where I've had character with distinctly sub-par stats and had just as much fun with them if not more, than I did playing characters with 'superior ?' stats, so why 'limit' yourself to just playing characters where you have less of a challenge playing the game.

So what of the build i posted way back? Not a jack of any trades? Here:


Good perception, enough charisma to be treated nicely by people without recieving penalties, very intelligent and incredibly agile. That does not sound like a character who is jack of no trades. He'll easily be able to sneak around and break & enter, and be able to get a companion to lighten the load in combat. High intelligence means a boost to skill points, which means the character will be very skillful. Strength is boosted later by PA, and if carry weight ever gets too much there are always going to be a few buffout in my pocket, and if worst comes to worst he can always shove his revolver in someones face, that usually solves things. Its fully possible to build a character who is 'good' at stuff.

Only because you don't consider a stat at 5-6 to be decent, and a 7+ to be high.


With stats like that in FO3, I can have Small Guns, Stealth, and Repair at 75+ by level 6 or 7. Which is darn good. Add a couple gun perks (like Commando or Sniper), and you're getting to be powerful. (Many of my FO3 characters stick with Small Guns. And the heaviest ones I use are the Chinese Assault & Scoped .44. Really don't like how the sniper rifle handles.)



But this is all speculation. We still have to find out what kind of perks there are, how skill points are done, if tagging is any different.....

Agreed. Specialization is the way to go. 40 points is more than enough IMO.

I think 40 Points are good...they worked in previous Fallout Games...being someone who can do everything might be fun, but there is no challenge...also no replay value other than Karma Choices...

S: 6
P: 7
E: 4
C: 3
I: 9
A: 7
L: 4

My built...at least as long I don't know more about derived stats...should make a good Sniper...and with PA and/or Weapon Handling (should it be in game) I can use the 50cal no Problem.

The only thing that might be bothering me is limited carry capacity...I usually take everything I find...but the Pack Rat Perk should fix that...maybe they even go back to 25lb per Str instead of 10...

Yes 40 is a good number:
S-5
P-5
E-5
C-7
I-8
A-6
L-4

My 1st char will be a good inteligent and likeable.
I will prefer to convince bad guys to turn a new leaf over their lives than to kill them.

Strength: 8
Perception: 7
Endurance: 6
Charisma: 4
Intelligence: 7
Agility: 4
Luck: 4

Works for me

A good build but for a long ranged character. But by the time you get the .50 cal. Agility is less useful outside of V.A.T.s so you could bump your strength up a bit more if long ranged fps is your style.

I am mixed about 25lbs per point. As I am a packrat but want characters to chose between items more in hardcoe. I say leave perks to fill that role and keep it at 10lbs per point.

And intelligence is going to have less impact on skill points (or so they say). So outside of dialogue you could drop a few more points from it with little harm.

It is a bit limiting, but having any more would probably be too much. It's just frustrating that specialising in more than one attribute generally leaves you with big deficiencies in others: not a problem in FO3, with expendable Charisma and Luck that wasn't too important. However, in the original games, it was a bad idea to leave any stat too low, which made character creation difficult.

Well, it's kinda the point. I mean look at yourself in real life. Are you good or average at everything?

Nah...don't really like FPS...Fallout is a RPG and thats how it's meant to be don't think I'll need high strength early in the game...later there's PA...and (hopefully) the Weapon Handling Perk

Agility also for Stealth (I hope )

Especially since ammo will have weight in HC, I want the 25lbs like in the original games...don't care if normal mode will be too easy then...sure...no need for spare armor for repair, but still...I want to have some verstility when it comes to ammotypes without running low all the time...and I hope PA carries itself when wearing it this time...

Ohhhhh I think I like that

:thumbsup: True.
I like your clasic build. I was just playing with it. And trying to see if a low agility would have that much of an affect on a .50 cal sniper. I think people who object to the current S.P.E.C.I.A.L system have not thought it out that we now have big guns in every weapon skill set. So its a trade off. Do I stick with a medium grade rifle modded for sniping and bump my agility up higher incase I close with the enemy and need V.A.T.s. Or take biger guns like the plasma caster or .50 cal stick to ranged fps and bump my strength up.
Weight I could go either way on but I hope perks add like weapon handling and pack rat in for later balance. But hopefully items have been given better limits to them. And that repair has changed so you're not lugging spare guns all the time.

Add I may get burned but I hope power armour is so rare that you will only see it for 5% of the game at most.

I hope they treat Power Armor essentially as Morrowind (if you've played it) treated Daedric Armor. That is you don't see it until near the end and you have to really hunt to get it. In Morrowind there was only one character with a full suit of Daedric Armor and you didn't see him until you were near the end and only if you could levitate.

Since F:NV is using the same 2 slot, body and head, organization style for armor I'd like to see maybe 6 instances of Power Armor with 2 or 3 variations in those 6. So say 3 Brotherhood of Steel members, 2 Enclave Remnants, and 1 whatever else (Tribal PA, Fallout 1 PA, whatever). Additionally the FPS nature of F:NV makes it a lot more plausible for a low level character to kill a high level character and access stuff he really has no business accessing. I would like the few instances of Power Armor to be either worn by someone deliberately made to be very difficult to kill, difficult to the point that it really makes more sense to accomplish whatever task they have set out for you to do than to kill them.

In regard to the actual topic:

I agree with the people who say 40 is plenty. If you take 1-10 as a bell curve of human capacity 50% of people ought to fall into the 4-6 or 3-7 range for each attribute, with the remaining 1-3 and 8-10 splitting the remaining 50% of people.

As the game screens seem to indicate I see it as such:

1: Profoundly Lack in Capacity
2: Distinctly Lacking in Capacity
3: Lacking in Capacity
4: Bottom Area of Average
5: Exactly Average
6: Upper Area of Average
7: Proficient
8: Distinctly Proficient
9: Profound Abilities
10: Godly

So starting at all 5s is, naturally enough, being average at everything. I think the argument about whether 40 is sufficient or not really just stems from two different philosophies of RPGs.

There's the power leveling philosophy that wants to be at least Distinctly Proficient in just about everything. These people probably enjoy sandbox games of these types largely for the exploration. They don't like being limited to where they can go or what they can do. They might only play through the game once or twice but will spend 100 hours or more on those one or two playthroughs doing everything they can. Most characters they make would likely be seen through to the end. These are the type who if they were to mod would likely develop large land areas with several quick missions to do in them. I would guess that these are the type of people who are rather proud of their character's accomplishments at the end of the game and would like to import them to the next game.

Then there's the other philosophy for which I don't really have a name. They're more open to having points of strength alongside points of weakness. They probably enjoy sandbox games not for the exploration so much as for the sense of existing in a world which could be explored and for playing their chosen role within that world. For these people the limitations are almost as much a part of the character as the strengths. They might play just as many, or more, hours as the other philosophy but likely will use twice as many characters. They are ok with leaving doors left unlocked and factions left unexplored if their character were say, a lawful NCR member. I would guess that this most characters the type of person made would be abandoned as half of the fun is in coming up with the character. If they were to mod i would expect them to create a smaller town with more depth to it. I would guess that while they too are proud of their character's accomplishments they would not wish to import them to the next game, preferring to spend some time thinking up backstory for a new character.

first of a all a high SPECIAL doesn't make your character overpowerfull, skill points has more to do with that i think, so everyone who is saying unless you only have 40 points for a SPECIAL you'll be a "god, i think thats kinda ridiculous, in fallout 3 there were really just too many skill points, skill books, educated perk etc. but for everyone who likes to use a 50 cal, you'll need to have an 8 strength to use it, and that means using most of your points you have to distribute just for that and that will leave like 2 points unless you want to tank a stat, so we'll see how it works out but i'm tired of hearing some people saying some of you guys just want to be a god, thats getting a bit old, in fallout 3 i took all 10 intense training perks and collected all the bobbleheads and that still didn't max my SPECIAL out, my charisma was still only 5 and my strength was only 6 or 7, and the SPECIAL doesn't by itself make your character a god.