First of all, the only TES game I've played is Oblivion, just to let you know in advance. If you're in a rush skip to the last sentence.

I really don't like how one character can be ultimately awesome at absolutely everything, and think that the way to fix this is by reworking the specialisation. Remember that thing you chose with your class at the start of the game? IMO it had absolutely no long term consequences to the game. I think that a character should either be a fighter, mage, or stealth, or maybe a slightly worse mixture of two. I have a couple of theories that may make specialisation actually matter:

A. Have a few factions (maybe 3 each) relevant to each specialisation, your character can choose two of those dactions to join and perhaps one from another specialisation.

B. At the start of the game, have the PC prioritise their specialisation 1-3, from what they are most likely to use to what they are least likely to use. The specialisation increases attributes and skills that are relevant to it (which i already does), but also restricts and reduces the use of skills and attributes from the specialisation you prioritisd last.

Both theories would need expanding and any are welcome to do so or come up with your own. My main point is that specialisation NEEDS changing and relevance.

EDIT: sorry about the emoticon thing, was meant to be a 'B' )

I think some specialization could be nice, some...
Im not sure what would really work, because limiting my freedom to dabble isn't very fun for the dabbling...
But its also sad to see a player with all skills maxed, its like whats the point of being a warrior if you decide to use stealth and magic instead?

Im really split, my first character has traditionally been a jack of all trades master of none type.
But its also really boring to have all skills maxed.

Well it does sort of matter because it affects your maximum level and such. To me one of the strengths of TES is that you do not have to be bound to a single class. Want to learn stealth? Put in the effort, same goes for everything else.

The specialization itself, i.e. picking one of the Big Three, isn't really something that needs to exist. Your "specialization" is already summed up by the skills you chose, and sticking a label overtop that just pigeonholes you into one of three cliches. After that, aside from making skills harder to increase as was detailed in another thread, this needs to matter in-game. For starters, any skill you didn't start with is at its minimum level, and as such should be virtually useless. Oblivion's no-fail setup was not conducive to this, since any idiot character with minimal intelligence could still pick up a mortar and pestle and start whipping up potions without ever failing. Any skill you don't start with should be either unusable or useless; trying to use a sword would result in misses, stumbles, and fails. You would be unable to just buy and cast a spell until you had actual training in that school. Without failure, you essentially start the game proficient in every skill known to man, just with varying degrees of competence. Any amount of "specialization" is already void from day one, because you're trained in everything.

With slower increases and harsher failures for unknown skills, it would definitely be prudent to stick to your chosen skills/specialization, especially if the game were harsher and more challenging in general. If I try to take a Fighter's Guild job without knowing how to fight, I die. If I want to be a thief and have no stealth skill at all, the guards catch me. There also need to be gameplay options beyond the Big Three; better creature AI, "animal items" like pelts and meat, and value to using them would let me stick to playing a hunter type. Espionage missions for the local government, for agents ("Agent" has been a class for a long time, yet the games ignore that sort of gameplay entirely). Options to actually use them would encourage people to stay in their chosen skills. On top of the slower general skill increases, have a greater gap in the increase rate for chosen and non-chosen skills. All that together, I think, would help keep characters within their chosen class without hard barriers. Being a jack of all trades character would be where it belongs; the type a player chooses to make, instead of an inevitable blurring for all characters to slide into.

With you on this one.

Thats similar to my veiw on it, increase the difference between what you are good and bad at and make it HARD to become good at somthing you are bad at, but I get the feeling most people who open these threads want perks and little flashy things that allow developers to not have to worry about implementing depth in this way. But I digress...

I like most of this except for the slower increases I hope they add more depth to each skill along with a chance of failure for skills you are not trained in.

I would certainly never want a Mage/Thief/Warrior choice, but that's never going to happen.

But I do want a stealthy fighter who plays differently than a fighty mage. Or a magey thief. And, if I REALLY want to be a mage/fighter/thief, fine...but I better be level 127 and a half before I am master of 3 unrelated guilds.

The last paragraph is more what I'm getting at, however at the same time I still like the idea of having a particular chosen specialisation.



Yes to whats in bold, but no to the italics.

We can have progressive classes that player acquire for themselves and this would make their characters more specialized.

I mean, why should a newbie character have a fully defined class of character, before you have done anything at all?

The classes can have some tree like dependencies to each other and some of them can be a continuation of others, i.e. a more advanced version of other classes, so we can have classes like this list:

=== === === === === === === === === ===

Endurance:
-1-Wanderer
-1-1-Adventurer
-1-1-1-Tomb Raider
-1-1-2-Seeker
-1-2-Pilgrim
-1-2-1-Monk
-1-2-2-Daedra Worshiper
-1-3-Acrobat?

Strength:
-2-Warrior
-2-1-Knight
-2-1-1-Crusader
-2-1-2-Death Knight
-2-2-Mercenary
-2-2-1-Gladiator
-2-2-2-Bounty Hunter
-2-3-Barbarian?

Speed:
-3-Scout
-3-1-Agent
-3-1-1-Assassin
-3-1-2-Spy
-3-2-Archer
-3-2-1-Ranger
-3-2-1-Hunter

Agility:
-4-Thief
-4-1-Robber
-4-1-1-Bandit
-4-1-2-Raider
-4-2-Swashbuckler
-4-2-1-Duelist
-4-2-2-Rogue

Will Power:
-5-Healer
-5-1-Cleric
-5-1-1-Priest
-5-1-2-Lich
-5-2-Alchemist
-5-2-1-Druid
-5-2-2-Shaman

Intelligence:
-6-Mage
-6-1-Sorcerer
-6-1-1-Wizard
-6-1-2-Warlock
-6-2-Conjurer
-6-2-1-Summoner
-6-2-2-Necromancer

Personality:
-7-Bard
-7-1-Courier
-7-1-1-Minister
-7-1-2-Night Blade
-7-2-Spell Sword
-7-2-1-Battle Mage
-7-2-2-Witch Hunter

=== === === === === === === === === ===

A newbie character can start with a background, which acts as a base for his future initial class development, and a birth sign, a weapon of choice, and the like to give him enough initial boost and useful perks to aid him through the game.

But later in the game, players can join the factions that they like and develop a role for themselves, in the game world, and that would define their class(es), just like the real world, as no one would start his like as a pre-destined doctor, or grocery man.

The initial background of the characters would make it easier for them to join a specific faction, but would not prevent them from joining other factions that suit their character's proficiency with different skills, and their attributes.

A background is like the initial level of a class, so if you have a scout background, then you would have the scout perk(s), and can instantly join its respective guild, faction or agency, or any other type of group that teaches the player in that branch of classes, so for instance a guild needs some scouts for their affairs, and the instance they see any character with scout background they would hire them without any hesitation.

But other characters have to find a way into the place, and have to have the attributes and skills that would satisfy the needs of the place.

When joined the guild, players would be sent on errands that require them to act as scouts, until they show their true worth to their faction, and meet the attribute and skill requirement for their next level of promotion, i.e. to become an agent.

But when they get promoted to an agent, they would instantly get trained to become one, and get updated perks that come with being an agent.

If they had joined another faction, they could become an archer in their next promotion, and get its perks instead.

Anyways, when you have shown your worth as a skillful agent, and developed a reputation in certain circles, some other freelance agent jobs might present themselves for you, from other places than your current joined faction(s), until you meet the requirements for your next promotion, i.e. to become a spy, after that you might be directed to another group, with a recommendation in hand so that you can join them as a professional spy.

On the other hand, if while attending your missions, you have shown yourself as a cold blooded killer that would kill people when there was no need, and reported back with the facts, then you might get a surprise(?) meeting and be offered another profession by another agency, and you are free to join any of the new opportunities.

But after you have joined any of them, you would get the initial lessons, and acquire some new upgraded perks, but would lose the opportunity to join the other faction, so you either become a professional spy or a skilled assassin.

Each promotion on your class(es), or your initial background would raise the soft cap of some of your skills, and/or speed up the rate of progression in those skills.

And you would gain access to expert teachers in those factions that would teach you new perks for your skills that are required for the faction.

You can join any faction that you can meet their requirements and also can find your way in, (as you might have ruined your chances with them because of your previous choices).

But advancing in them would require hard work and development of your character to meet the requirement for the next promotions and the fact that the character attributes cannot be changed a lot in the course of the game, would define if you can actually join a faction and if so, how many promotions you could get in them, and those promotions would define the soft cap over your skills, and the teachers, perks and other luxuries that you can get access to.

=== === === === === === === === === ===

But let's start from the beginning:

At the start of the game, after you reach the phase that you can define your initial character's characteristics, instead of choosing (or creating) a class for yourself, you are asked about your character's background, which in effect would define an initial basic class for your character and your "Specialization", and a perk or two, to aid you a bit.

After that you are asked about a preferred weapon of choice, and get a boost in that skill, and after defining your birth sign and the like, you are presented with the list of your skills, and then you can tweak them within a range, which is defined by your previous choices, including the race.

So you could increase or decrease your skill levels within those ranges by steps of 5 levels, but the final sum of the skills should be a specific number.

After that phase, when you accepted the resulting character, your initial attributes would be calculated depending on your skill levels, and you would be granted, "Apprenticeship", and "Journeyman ship" on skills that pass the level 25 and 50 respectively, and you start your carrier after that.

And your background would give you a starting basic class, so for instance if you have chosen the background:

"As the third son/daughter of an impoverished nobleman, I had joined the army, and have got a bit of experience as a warrior, but decided to leave it to test myself with new challenges..."

This background would give you the initial class of warrior, and would open the way for you to become a "Knight" in the future.

See, that Necromancy is after the second promotion of the initial class of mage, but you could learn necromancy spells and cast them before that if you could find the teachers that would teach you how to, but reaching the Necromancy promotion would grant you perks that would greatly boost your powers as a necromancer, so it would be an important milestone in the carrier of any wannabe necromancer.

=== === === === === === === === === ===

OK, this is the bare bone of the progressive classes, which would help us make specialized characters in the course of the game, as we like, and it does not force the hand of the players because they chose a full fledged class for their character at the start of the game, and I hope to see something like that in next TES games.

How about limiting the total amount of attributes? Let people add 10 attribute points per level for the first 10 levels (up to level 11), and then the next two levels they gain 9, the two after than they gain 8 etc. until after 31 the total amount of attributes is maxed. Maybe allow players to reduce one attribute and add those points to others at higher levels. It would both be realistic and a good way for people to think about what they want to be good at and what they don't need to be good at. I'm guessing a lot of people will complain about this because they can't make godlike characters anymore, but I think it would be a good thing.

Also soft-limit the level of minor skills to the average level of your major skills.

But your character already isn't fully defined at the start of the game, seeing as how you can choose what skill and attributes you want to focus on. We don't need a greater focus on class than was in Oblivion or Morrowind (we do need minor skills back, however). Largely classless gameplay is a hallmark of the series, and it should stick around..

I strongly disagree with the suggestions that people should be forced into the narrow skill set they choose when starting. One of the strengths of the series is that with enough effort you can do well at everything, in my opinion.

I personally want to try and be some kind of stealth mage hybrid if possible, and if that fails I don't want to be pidgeonholed and stuck for the rest of my file due to character creation choices.