I totally support charaismatic characters and more speech options. Especially since my main is a rogue-ish swashbuckling breton bladesinger...

You know what else is boring as hell? Filler combat. Ever played Dragon Age? Pretty much the whole game. Ever played Arcanum? Lots of it there too, Black Mountain Mines especially.

Now imagine a charismatic rogue character that is weak in combat. No way can she defeat the evil bandit overlord and his posse of necromancers. However, she can convince the necromancers that the bandit overlord is not working with their best interests in mind. Or she can charm the bandit overlord. And it may or may not work. But you know what? It's still awesome, because a CRPG is more than just combat, even if it is mainly combat. Frankly, I think that all character builds should be viable, but in DIFFERENT ways. If every build was just a different way to kill, it would get boring. A different way to play the game, though, and you have struck gold.

You do realize there are other modes within TES gaemplay besides conflict, don't you? Reserve proselytizing for those minor tasks, like persuading someone to sell you or give you something, if you will.

Major conflict should always require open/stealth combat, i. e., risking your life to succeed.

Id love to see you atempt to reach a peaceful resolution with a hungry lion.

Is it not still risking your life if you try to persuade the boss? Your chances of success are minimal, and it's basically a crapshoot, but if you have a diplomatic character that's not as good at combat, then it's worth a shot.

Let me give you an example to demonstrate that more choices do not remove the risk. In Fallout 2, you have to fight a final boss. He's a pretty tough cookie, and a less combat-oriented character would have trouble with him. You can use your stellar computer skills to hack the boss's own turrets to attack him. This reduces the threat, but doesn't remove it. You could also use your conversational skills to convince a team of power armoured soldiers to help you out for the sake of all your lives. Again, this doesn't remove the risk of fighting the boss-- one critical can still kill you-- but it does make things easier for a character that's not all-out combat oriented.

The problem with leaving speechcraft as only helpful for minor stuff, is that it makes the skill useless, superfluous, and a target for cutting. Then we lose another noncombat skill, shift again towards combat and keep doing so until all you have is combat. What's so bad about having quests that can be solved in many ways? It adds replay value (especially if the end result differs depending on the solution taken), and keeps all skills useful and prevents them from becoming superfluous.

Now, I don't expect Skyrim to have some crazy influence system like Arcanum, where every character had an impression of you which affected their willingness to bend to your will, but at least we could have something like the Fallout 2 example. Diplomacy not as an alternative to combat (diplomacy with Alduin's minions? lol), but as a way to alter the way the game plays out.

player: *looks relieved*
Alduin: But I'm still gonna eat it! *winks*



I :sweat: support this idea

I'll bring it out:

Speeechcarft is a puerile meaningless skill in its current implementation. The only way i see for it to have real meaning and require real craft would be a built in ability to process real human speech.
Programmer's Hell is littered with good intentions such as Speechcraft. I'd advise Bethesda against wasting precious resources such as time and programmers in it, specially when indeed they are including more non combat skills rather then excluding, as the inclusion of cooking, smithing, mining and wood cutting clearly prove. So, again,if you do want some sort of persuasion skill included please provide a conceptual model of it bccause speechcraft just doesn't cut it in late 2011.

I'm all for it. Planescape Torment, fallout 1, both deus ex games, and arcanum are my favorite RPGs of all time, and one of the great things about these games is they required almost no killing to get through the game (heck, you can actually TALK to the last boss instead of fighting them in these games).

Of course, playing a pure diplomatic isn't going to work for the main quest, but just give us more options on sidequest. Obviously, if the thieves guild quests is similar to the one in oblivion, killing shouldn't be required.

Dog: Growl
Dragonborn: Good doggy!
Dog: Licks hand

"Arrive at peaceful resolutions by using superior firepower". Second time today I've posted that and it make sense. Hopefully I can get it in again somewhere today.

Vampire Masquerade Bloodlines. Yes its entirely possible and extremely fun.

Alduin knows that...lol Alduin is quite the devious dragon.

Of course. Talking should be the primary problem solution method for most characters but pure fighters. It's like that in every good pen and paper round, in every good LARP, why not in every good cRPG as well? Hell, even in a good fantasy movie there's more talking than fighting.

?Talking should be the primary problem solution method?

snip

You go tell that to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi. Seriously, in TES dialogue is handled via a dialogue tree, a very limited preset array of lines. Do you really want to base problem solving in such a narrow range of options? The day RPG games have the ability to understand natural human speech i may begin to concur.
Meanwhile,
your idea would be the Nemesis of TES.

I want to play the game without fighting. I will earn money as a merchant and hire some badass mercenaries that will kill every enemy who cross my path and yes also alduin:D. That was just a joke I like the idea of going other ways than fighting. But if you train that skill you will lack the skill to fight if you need to and there will be fights you can not avoid. Speechcraft will never be more than an addtional feature to your main skills which reflects how you fight if even ( in oblivion it lacks sense).

Except that speechcraft can provide a different way to tackle the obstacles in the game whereas cooking, smithing, woodcutting, crafting, etc offer diversions from the main game.

How would you know that? For certain, tha is,?
Do you really believe turning a knob left to right and paying atention to glitched facial expressions constitutes a solid way to tackle obstacles? Where is the carft in Speechcraft?

If you want persuadion offer a better model. Else,I think Bethesda should do away with it.

Oh. You're talking about the way Oblivion did it. I just keep thinking about games I liked and imagine it will be like that. Frankly, I don't mind if Speechcraft is renamed Speech, or Diplomacy, or Persuasion, or whatever else. I just like C&C.

I am always for combat alternatives. Sometimes it just makes more sense to not carve up every random idiot and sometimes enemies just really don't even deserve it.

Easy case-in-point that should settle the argument about the implementation of speech skills and peaceful resolution vs. combat driven conflict situations:

Go play Mass Effect

The entire first and second game revolve entirely around speech use, diplomacy, and resolution/negation to combat situations based on your skill being "good" or being "good, but an A-hole".

Even the final boss in Mass Effect 1 can be "persuaded" in multiple ways, even though combat is not entirely avoided (which is GREAT). Bioware has found the perfect way to make more realistic human interaction a staple in it's RPG's. So to those that state it would be too hard for Bethesda, take a look at some other equally stellar game developers.

And you know what? I honestly would suggest that my 2 favorite RPG producing companies (Bethesda and Bioware) combine to become the greatest maker of games ever!! :foodndrink: However I figure this is just a pipe dream, but one can dream....I might put that as a sig.....

Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but the game will not have a confirmed feature that allows you to talk even with enemies? I do not know if i dreamed this or i read in some site.

Anyway, like the idea!!

I'd welcome some sort of persuasion skill.

Just *NOT* Speechcraft.

:rofl:



You don't see a problem with this? Your diplomacy is not based around any skill at diplomacy. It's determining how much of an [censored] you can be based on how much of an [censored] you have been, and how much of a goodguy you can be based on how much of a goodguy you have been. It's entirely useless and leads to the PC becoming flat or useless. If you try to be neutral, you'll evenutally be unable to use either option and end up doing a lot worse in the game than if you went full [censored] or full niceguy.

Seriously, I like diplomacy and persuasion, but Mass Effect is not the place to borrow ideas from. It's a fun game, don't get me wrong, but it's not exactly deep well of gameplay.

Well if you can talk to a guy who is not interrupting whatever activity he is doing in the game, maybe you can start a conversation with a guy trying to beat you up with an axe as big as a tree trunk. Maybe to beg for mercy or otherwise to taunt him...
There's one feature I have never seen in a game before and for some reason I thought it would make sense to implement in this one is shouting... I don't mean Dragon shouts. I mean normal shouting. Not yelling at npcs which wouldnt end earning their hearts but being able to "talk" to them on a distance.
I don't know how useful that feature could be made by developers. Basically the idea is not having to be close to a NPC to click on them / start a conversation. Maybe to communicate with some monk situated on a peak not accessible from your side on the mountain. Maybe to call a npc and make him come closer. ( not sure how that would be useful ) Maybe if you are with a npc and you dont want to go back to him you call him to go to you. Of course shouts should draw attention from the local dwellers so an option for an advanced stealth perk would be to motion them to move and to give orders silently with gestures. Well I suppose that game doesnt handle party play further than mercenary company or escort quests but it might come in handy if you ask your partner to stay still and call him/ her back after cleaning area instead of coming back. Might be useful in a dense forest... Maybe a whistling version could be used for pets / summoned creatures ( horses ) "shout conversations" should have very few options because trying to communicate by shouting shouldnt take you too far. Some could be advanced according to situation ( a guy on the other side of a crevice that you need to save )
So why do I think this would make sense here..? well because of the dragon shouts. One might allow to converse with a character far away without angering him or another to control a character from distance, same as "thee Voice" in Dune..

As for speechcraft. I hope it's not handled like in Oblivion where it was just a lame mini game. I think the Bioware games handle persuasion pretty well. Of course they do not have the necessity to fit the feature in a gameplay where constantly use of skill is needed like in the ElderScrolls so I guess they have better control how/ when the persuasion option is used. If bartering is combined with this skill players won't be pressured to use skill so often. That's a big advantage of combining skills and adding perks I think...

I never said it was a skill you developed....in those games it's based on your good/evil rating, but you do have to put in some effort at either one for your "skill" at in-game persuasion to increase. That doesn't have to be how it's controlled in every game. And if you want to see a counter example of a truly "flat" character, look at Dragon Age. The PC has no character to speak of, because your decisions affect nothing in the long term. Hence why I do not own or play those games, because they are not as good.

Maybe you should consider thinking before posting, also. If you had, then you'd realize what a generalization is, and what the concept of applying an example in a logical fashion to a proposed theory, is. :thumbsup: