Yes they looked bad in most cases. But that has nothing to do with spell creation. If they had removed spell creation in oblivion the spells still would have looked the same. Sure with spell creation you will be duplicating appearance wise some spells. Like if its based on a flamethrower but you add a panic effect it will just look like a flamethrower, maybe if we are lucky it will have green sparkles in it like the panic spell might. So yeah the appearance of created spells might get boring, but no more so than the default spells.

Not directed at you in particular: But I have read magic will be dynamic or more contextual, so spell creation will be out. Can anyone explain WTF they mean by that. I am not trying to be an ass, but what do people actually expect from the new system? All I have heard is you basically load up a spell effect.(fire seems to be the popular one)and based on how you hit the buttons it has different effects. Which reads to me a glorified hotkey system, you bring up the fire effect so the fire hotkeys are available. So what do people actually expect from this?

its gonna be like fable

Fable 3 - Gauntlets needed to cast spells on for each hand - Skyrim - Spells for each hand

F3 - spells initiate base on distance of enemy and how long you hold cast - Skyrim Ditto

F3 - Limited range of spells but very flashy so apparently it puts magick back in magick and everyone knows the same spells Skrim - Ditto

F3- can combine spells Skyrim - In the Works

F3- cannot create spells to address certain situations - Skyrim - niether confirmed or denied, just alot of Conjecture

That's exactly right. A fire spell would, for example, toss a fire ball like in Oblivion if the button is tapped, create a stream of fire if it's held, etc. This complicates spellmaking. In previous games a single spell effect only did one thing. You threw a ball of magic with every targeted spell, and if it hit it did something specific. That made spellmaking easy because you could combine three different effects and, because they all looked the same and acted the same, they would together still be thrown out as a ball and if it hit all the effects would do their thing.

How would you manage this in Skyrim if a fire spell can be a ball or a flamethrower, but no other spell effect works like that? Say ice is normally an icicle, but if the button is held it blasts the enemy with a bigger chunk of ice that freezes them for a short duration? How would you combine the effects if they're animated differently? Which animation would take precedence? I suppose you could base the animation on which has the highest magicka cost. But then what about their effects? Will that flamethrower also freeze the target?

And what if not all fire spells act that same way? How do touch spells act, and how do they change when the button is held? We've heard about the Frost Rune spell in the demo. While all frost spells may have the same mine-like functionality, that's unlikely. We can assume that they're adding spells that don't fit into the classic "Touch Target Self" trichotomy. You can limit it so that only like effects can be placed together, so only two mine effects can be put in the same spell. But who's to say how many varying effects a single elemental type can have?

You might have mines, player-based explosions like we see in the trailer, touch-based, target-based, self (which could be bundled into the explosion one), spells which create lasting AoE hotspots, spells which can rain down from above, and who knows what else. Not to mention all the variations each of these could have depending on how the buttons are pressed. And each of the variations could be different between elements. And that's all just Destruction magic. How do you combine these various, diverse effects with other spells from other schools? How should the spellmaking system decide which effects take precedence, which effects can't be made into custom spells, etc? I don't expect them to be able to let the player work with any effect as they wish, and any limitations they put on it would just cause people to complain anyway.

I'd love to be able to make spells with simple combinations. Like a Demoralize spell coupled with a Fire spell. But simple two-spell combos can be handled by spell combining, if they do eventually make the combos diverse and not just combinations of the same spell like Chain Lightning. Take a Demoralize spell in one hand, a Fire spell in the other, and combine them for an effect which sets the enemy on fire and launches them into a panic. Stuff like that is going to make mages fun for me, whether or not it's allowed in spellmaking or if spellmaking exists at all.

Assuming everything you say it true, I just don't see an issue really. All the Fire spell really is is 5 spells packaged into one. Game effect wise It no different than having fire equipped in my left hand and and that determining what my 1-5 hotkeys are on a PC. Which just makes it a hot key system. The packaging of the hokeys to a certain spell may make it a bit easier in some ways to use,(mainly conceptually) but I don't see the need to take out spell making. If fire is packaged with fireball , flamethrower, etc. Just let people make spells but choose the specific spell effect they are bringing in for the spell creation. Fire isn't narrow enough, fire- flamethrower is the specific spell effect you are bringing into your new spell.

It really seems to me that nothing is being added mechanically to the game. Sure it might have some ease of use benefits, fire having X effects is easier to remember, maybe shift+mouse has a fairly standard group of effects that will happen from a spell etc. And ease of use can help game play. Game play is important, it trumps graphics, sound, virtually everything. But in a RPG game play is made up a variety of things not just controller ease of use issues. To add random values to it, it seems like they are reducing the quality of gameplay by 10 with the (possible) removal of spell making, but improving it by 2 by making it a more intuitive controller set up. Or in other words you can have the smoothest jumping mechanic in the world in a platform game, but if the levels are lame the game play is going to svck since that is the meat of the game. Now for magic I'd say the actual end effects are the solid meat of the game for most games, spell making is closer to that meat than the control scheme to cast the spells.

The different effects are probably hardcoded as part of an individual spell. First they would have to separate these effects from an individual spell and allow them to be applied to any spell. Regardless of if that's true or not, the spellmaking system would have to figure out how that effect is supposed to combine with a targeted effect. Not every spell effect is going have a flamethrower mode. Do you limit things so only flamethrower effects can be put into a spell with other flamethrower effects? What if fire spells are the only ones with that kind of effect? Then creating a spell that does only that would be unnecessary.

Would adding a targeted Demoralize spell to a flamethrower spell make the Demoralize spell act as a flamethrower as well? Most likely Demoralize spells won't be coded to work like that, so you'd have to add a flamethrower mode to them just for spellmaking purposes. And you'd have to do that with every possible variation of every possible spell effect to make everything compatible. Or, like I said, make it so only targeted effects combine with targeted effects, flamethrower with flamethrower. This would severely limit the freedom a player has in spell creation. It would work much the same as it did in previous games, but you'd only have one variation of a custom spell, while every premade spell you find will be much more versatile.

One of the benefits to spellmaking in previous games is being able to combine effects. In this game, having that option wouldn't give the player any more versatility than using premade spells. If you want one flamethrower with Demoralize, you'd still need a separate spell for a targeted Demoralize and Fire spell, so you're not saving any hotkey slots.


"Quality of gameplay" is entirely subjective so I can hardly argue against what you would enjoy. I prefer the new various effects, so for me gameplay has improved by 10. Just like the attributes vs. perks debate, while it would be lovely if both spellmaking and dynamic magic were included, I would rather have the new than the old.

To those that say spell creation has been confirmed not to be in the game....no. Todd made it very explicit that they were still working on spell creation. So spell creation is still up in the air until they decide if they can balance it with the new magic system. Same with mounts, it's currently up in the air whether it will be in or not but it definitely wasn't "confirmed" out.

It's not the apperance my problem but the lack of forms.
How about a field you can put on the ground, a wall or a rain. I know these could be added to spell making but there could be some balancing issues...


So because one game did it wrong, nobody else can...


On another note, I'm not sure the spellmaking's the same that we knew a few months ago, because I don't think multiple uses of spells are still in (charging still could be). Runes were spells before, now they're items and none of the articles mentioned it. We have spell combos however, which sound much better anyway.

Most of the articles said the Frost Rune was a spell. One article said it was an item. I believe another said it was a tome which taught a spell. Has it been confirmed they're items only?

I based this on the articles, and I've only read one that mentions runes at all and it said that it was an item.

It could be mistaken if there the other articles say it was a spell...

What you said. :thumbsup:

Power up and Create? I hope they still enchant...

Actually its not, this is a Internet forum, people say whatever they want, they're not timid until a dev, or others say something. LOL at forum goers being timid to speak their mind.

No, not all created spells took the form of a ball, again, have you ever even used it? Apparantly you only made spells on target who's main visual 'cue' was in ball form.

Sure, it's not like people tend to be berated and flamed by saying something that's against the common.

Oh sure, you could also apply it on yourself or touch somebody, what a huge variety of forms.

To be fair lightning spells in Oblivion were balls with a pretty lightning mesh but didn't explode in their area like fire, and frost spells became bigger balls if you upped their area :grad:

Sure they can be balance issues, but I'd rather have balance issues with something fairly optional like this in the game than not have it in the game. I mean lets say a fear effect in a wall form might make melee monsters a complete non-threat. That could be problematic and while high magicka cost is a balance of sorts with mana potions etc. it might not be an adequate one. But spell making has been in for ages and while it had balance issues most were things easily avoided, and heck spell making itself was easily avoided by large segments of the ES gaming population. It isn't like fast travel where adventures are designed on the assumption you have it.

This is what was said by Todd. Until I hear otherwise from him or a developer, I will wait and see.

Actaully that comment makes you sound like the tollish snob:)

He has a very good point, fans of RPG's, real ones not action-shooter-hybrids are being largely ignored now. It is a huge mistake as it is a pretty large crowd of gamers, with a lot of desposable income. however the game devs are under pressure to homogenize there game into a stupid-proof, beige version in order to not scare the frat boy bro gamers off. Because of that don't hit the 5 million sold mark they are going to lose their job.

Fact of the matter is, if they go too far they make a game no one is going to want to play. That is what Skyrim is shaping up to be. So many things changed, that even die hard fans are deciding it won't be a game for them.

And to the other guy earlier, a real Fallout 3 with tactical combat and an actual you know, story, would have blown that piece of garbage we got out of the water. Sorry the truth hurts.

On and last thing, the Average age of a player of video games is http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp

20k? Dude you can make a rig that will play anything out for 500 bucks...

Meh, delusional folks that thought the genre/series would stay the same forever. Its gonna be a great game.

I agree.

So what does that have to do with anything? If I had 20000 bucks Id have 500 bucks. I obviously have neither to upgrade my rig. Therefore If I did hypothetically have 20000 dollars I wouldnt buy a hypothetical stereo system. Id buy a gaming rig and put a payment on my house.

On Topic: Spell creation, its a good thing.

If you didnt use it then Ah Salute!...but if you did, then we met upon the level and we're parting on the square.

Letting the series become stagnant, would be its downfall.

EDIT: However, the spell creation system allows for cusomization, which enhances gameplay freedom. I'd like for it to be there.

?

Spell creation =/= stagnant. there's more possibilities with spell creation than attaching a spell to each hand and your feet for that matter.

The new system and spell creation are not mutually exclusive.

There's a reason why they are still working on balancing spell creation with the new magic system.

I'd have to agree. I love what they are doing with the new system on many different levels, but it can only truly cement itself in my mind as a definite improvement if they can get the fashion they're delivering spellcasting in combined with spell creation.