Continue here : http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1221324-no-spell-making-confirmed-3/ .

I'm not sure I would put it like that, because they certainly aren't making hand-to-hand combat viable.
However, I get the impression that they want to remove consequences, penalties and necessities from the game. Regenerating health, no weapon and armor degredation (just a bonus when 'repairing'), invincible NPCs, one-size-fits-all magic, etc.
It's all designed so nothing is taken away from the player. He can do everything, and if he wants he can get a bonus, but there's no downside to anything (except the limited amount of perks, perhaps).

Bethesda game developement strategy:
1: Identify problems (or lackluster features)
2: Instead of fixing or making it better, remove it
3: Done

I could counter that argument so hard... but I feel sorry for you, so I'm not. I still don't see why you had to post pretty much the same thing in both threads though...

Who decides what constitutes "flawed." The need to carefully choose which attributes to level came from a REAL flaw in the game. Poorly managed Level Scaling of NPCs. It was Level Scaling which also made spell making almost essential for mage characters, because after level 30 or so, NONE of the games purchasable destruction spells, AND VERY FEW of the games target-other Illusion and Alteration spells were OF ANY USE against the mega-powered enemies you began to encounter at every turn.
Undead who NO turn undead spell that you could find or buy without making would effect. Trolls, Ogres and goblins who swallowed the strongest vendor/merchant/trainer offered fireballs and lightning bolts like they were jelly beans and gummi-bears. In Oblivion, a mage without spell making was relegated to being someone's b*tch or someTHING's breakfast.

The beauty of spell making wasn't that it made you an invulnerable god. It COULD do that if you REALLY micromanaged the hell out of it ( in which cas you earned your reward) or used glitch cheats, in which case you didn't give a damn about "balance" anyway. The real value of spell making, however, was that it allowed a pure mage, or predominatly mage character to keep up with the game at higher levels. A master wizard who had the power and skill to cast an extremely potent charm spell, strong enough to briefly mesmerize a Dremora Kynmarcher , or to create a firespell that would actually make a goblin chief think twice about charging after him, or cast an encumbering spell that actually slowed his enemies down, rather than having them laugh at the notion that they ever imagined they couldn't shrug off an extra 35 pounds, could NOT get his hands on any of these things, despite having the power and talent to use them, UNLESS he resorted to spell making. And shouldn't a Master of the magical arts be able to figure out how to tailor make a spell? I mean, really, to hell with, "is it still balanced to be Uber challanging even at level Grade AAA+ MegaGrandMaster status?", whatever happened to plausible ROLEPLAYING? Why should a master wizard, or master anything else, be an incompetent, mediocre peon, for the sole purpose of constantly giving the player a hard time. Isn't that what the difficulty slider is for? Your GrandMaster everything character too mighty for your liking? Start a new, neophyte character, or go back to a save file from when you were level 4.


As to spells automatically gaining power with leveling as a solution. . . what happens when you don't want to use a spell that is literally overpowering (i.e. a spell that literally goes far beyond the boundaries of what it's caster wishes it to do, in a way that is contrary to the caster's intentions).

Please do so. Don't hold back mate I can take it.
But I dont think you can take your beloved Bethesda doing something wrong and you having to admit it.

To be fair, they worked on the animations and the awful faces from Oblivion. So that's a plus!
Sadly they don't work like that regarding gameplay mechanics.

Haha don't get me wrong, there's some stuff I don't like that Bethesda are doing but there is a whole lot more they are doing right.

So on the fixing/adding side of it they've fixed level/loot scaling, the leveling system, fixed backpedal tactics, improved melee combat, fixed archery, added more bow variety, improved how stealth works, created a much better magic system (regardless of spell creation), added sprint (finally!), improved alchemy and brought back enchanting as it's own skill, added the creation of weapons and armour through smithing, added jobs, improved A.I., radiant story, created probably the most impressive dragons ever in a game, added much more choice to situations, economies between towns, ecology between animals, no more psychic guards, hand crafted environments and dungeons, added more puzzles to dungeons, travelling merchants, carriages for those who hate fast travel, dual wielding...

I still don't see the problem in adding spell crafting to skyrim.

you aren't finished yet...Each skill given perks some of which can be upgraded multiple times (allowing customization inside a skill), improved dialog interaction, upgraded Pickpocketing to it's own skill, greater character customization (facepaint, scars, etc.), 70 voice actors, 120+ dungeons...

Thanks for that, forgot about some of them

Someone should lock this topic, it's gotten way off track and there's already another thread going about it that's more on topic.

If possible, the Mods should merge this topic with the other thread of the same name. This one is the elder of the two, while the maker of the second was the same who made the earlier installments that locked at post limit. Ther are some good comments in both.

Well that sums up my feelings so well I could just copy it and print it, pretending I wrote it.
This is exactly it.
And this is exactly why I cringe everytime I read the words 'overpowered', 'cheating' and 'exploits'.
As I have said a million times before, this is not multiplayer nor FPS, so no such things exist.

This whole "Spellmaking" issue does seem a little extreme in some cases. People cancelling pre-orders over this issue alone? That's just crazy. I'll be the first to admit that I never really used the Spellmaking functionality to it's greatest capacity, that said I loved the fact it was there for those who did enjoy it.

Now, when it comes to Skyrim people need to remember that it WON'T be perfect. Knowing that, and the fact that many flaws get ignored from past Elder Scrolls titles (or passed over by the player while playing) yet we still enjoy the games, doesn't that give anyone hope? We've yet to actually try out the new magic systems in full, with our own builds. Any judgement made at this point seems somewhat premature. We know very little about the system in general. That's not to say that it will definitely work, there's a huge chance it won't, but isn't it better to try it, and then give feedback, than to write it out of hand completely?

I'm willing to give Bethesda the benifit of the doubt, and anxiously await Skyrim's release (as I have for five years, and three years for Oblivion before that). I'll give my opinions on it it (and decide if I will keep playing for years to come) once I actually know what I'm talking about. It will be a sad day if Skyrim isn't great, but such is life. No amount off scepticism on my part will change how the game is made at this point. My feedback on Skyrim may effect TESVI though.

No.
I have said many times before, and Im sure this is the general sentiment among the group you describe, that the reason Im not buying the game is not because there is no spellmaking.
It is because of no attributes, no classes, no birthsigns, even less skills, even less armour slots.
No levitation, teleportation, sanctuary, lock, jump, blind, sound, slowfall.
Because of failure to do little things like reintroduce named soulgems or clothing under armour.
It is because of the flavour of things like regenerative health and magicka, and to a lesser degree stamina.

Spellmaking is just the straw that broke the camels back.
A very big and heavy straw.

Im not cancelling my pre-order, I never had one. Im renting the game on release and if I like it Ill buy it as soon as the price drops.
And if I really like it Ill come on here and make a very long thread on why I was wrong and why Skyrim is the best game ever.

Did you read past the first paragraph? You are in fact doing the very thing I'm suggesting!!! Giving a trial and deciding from there. My post wasn't ever directed directly at you, and there have been people saying they will swear off Bethesda's games for this single issue. I'm glad you will be giving it a go. You almost personify the point I was trying to make.

No, I know that and I didnt take it personally, but I feel that my sentiment might be more common among people here.
Im having a hard time believing that anyone on this forum would not but the game for any one single issue, yet any one single issue combined with the general trend might be the final straw.

I am actually really hoping I will be wrong, Im just not very optimistic in that I will be.
Hope for the best, fear the worst, as they say.

There are many things about Skyrim that I really like. I do feel it might have been better off as an Elder Scrolls Legend, so that the TES series could have been kept an RPG.

That's fair enough. I'll admit I'm somewhat sceptical myself, I guess I'm just remaining more optimistic than most. The general trend certainly takes us away from what is comfortably "TES", and to many people who are quite involved with game (such as us long time fans) that can be a scary and risky thing. I understand the scepticism, and the reasoning behind it. The "last straw" argument is completely valid, but it still seems strange that some people (not yourself, clearly) who have loved Morrowind, Oblivion, even Arena and Daggerfall, would swear off Skyrim before giving it a chance.

Of course it's not an fps... it is an RTS

A mage going against a scholar could just rush to arcane university tech and make a few custom spells and there is nothing thieves nor the warriors can do about it until very late game tech, and by then the mage probably has a much better economy that he can just spam apprentices and low level scholars until he wins.

Seriously, Spell crafting *did* make me cancel my pre order for the 360, i'm working on getting a comp that can play skyrim ATM.

To be honest, I haven't even bothered preordering the game. At first I was waiting for the CE announcement, but that having failed to impress me (no soundtrack c'mon) I began waiting for more news. Now with this official news of no spell making, I am seriously thinking about just waiting for the price to drop or some GOTY edition. There are several other great game releasing and so far the announcements are just one disappointment after another.

You're not a fan of regenerative magicka and stamina? Not liking regenerating health I can understand, I guess, but I'm surprised to see that you (and I imagine there are others) are against magicka and stamina regen. Although I feel it should be a lot slower than it was in Oblivion, I wouldn't want it removed completely.

Magicka regen actually wasnt that fast in Oblivion, it regens at a constant rate no matter the level of your character. By the time I was level 50 it took forever to regen, which is frustrating when you have spells that eat up over 150 pts per use

IMO I think in general change is good, but there will never be a day that goes by when everyone likes change. I thought spell-making was a good feature to use in Oblivion, despite only two ways of accessing the altars. That being said, look at the new mechanics in Skyrim, the ability to dual wield one handed weapons, and the ability to cast spells from both hands, on their own or simultaneously. That alone is a step up from Oblivion, and with a new feature like this, I think that there isn't much point in spellcrafting anymore. I mean if you think about it, if you wanted to create a spell that did fire and frost damage, the alternative is to use a fire spell in one hand and a frost spell in another. People will argue that they don't want to have to lose their sword/axe etc for the useage of two combined spells, but the reality is that those in favor of pure mage characters have a specialist trait if you think about it, as does those that will duel wield swords or axes, they'll have no way of blocking/parrying (as we know of as of this time) but they sacrifice that so they have double the attack, which is the trait for that fighting style, so all in all I think its a good idea as it balances the game better. All of this is my opinion but I feel it does make sense.

Yay! Now being a magic person it is going to be fun! No more overpowered magic.

I really wish people would stop trying to rationalize the removal of spell making. There really is no rational explanation they can give that would convince me they could not allow players to alter simple values within their new spell system.