I think there are ways to have vast variety of cool and practical spells while at the same time having the availability to customize them or even create your own.
So I wouldn't say that spell creation = awesome or that no spell creation = awesome.
It's all about how it's handled.
Oblivions svcked though and I'd rather have static spells over a [censored] ton of generic meh spells.
If that means that spell creation has to go because Bethesda can't work in a nice fleshed out and polished system then so be it.

No, it is not dumb not to use these things. No more than it is dumb that every mage in the mages guild doesn't try to become a lich for better spell resistance, or for mages who don't wish to specialize in Alchemy not to make super potions, or to go through the game not making the use of some uber-powerful weapon.

Again, it comes down to choices. Logically, there is no reason a mage who has masterd all or even some of the schools of magic, wouldn't be able to create and cast enormously powerful spells. That is the manifestation of their mastery.

So the argument becomes, should players be able to create, through dedication of time and effort, extremely and extraordinarily powerful characters.

An option is not broken. It allows different people to play in the way that best suits and appeals to them. What you are advocating of stripping people of having the option to play their game as they wish, because the presence of the options that allow them to do so means that you also have the option of playing in a way that you claim not to want to.

The major problem is that while the game which allows for the uber powerful, Dumbledore/VoldemortRaistlin/Elminster style Apex Master Wizard also allows players to be bumblers, or very ordinary, to have minor skills, or no magical powers at all as pure warriors, the alternate version which you seem to champion, allows nothing but ordinaries. You can be skillful and ordinary, perhaps, but never shall your skills amount to greater power.

You are essentially confining all players to your preffered playstyle so that you do not have to be tempted by the lure of theirs. And that ain't right.

It's like saying that because you like a healthy vegeterian diet, restauraunts, instead of merely being made to offer vegetarian entrees, should be forced to stop serving meat, because the smell of steak or a burger might tempt you away from your intended meal type. "How can I eat the salad I meant to order when I smell that steak grilling in the kitchen!!! Remove it from the menu now, lest I be forced to order one!!"

That is foolishness.

Once again you avoid the hypocrisy of wanting a "challenge" and then face the challenge with a 1 hit kill spell. This isn't something thats forced on you, nor is it something that makes sense. If you want to be all you can be then do it, but its nearly the same as making a mod to give you a 1 hit weapon, or using the console to kill your enemies.
So play the game and don't complain about how you ruin it for yourself...

Spellmaking isn't Oblivion, its a trademark of the series. Thats like saying real time combat was new to Oblivion, it wasn't.

Mods can't fix everything. Some things are hard coded. Thats like saying, "Don't like gamebryo, mod it out!"



I have yet to see a good reason to remove spellmaking. Exploits are flaws of their balance, not spellmaking. Spells being mundane are an issue of how Bethesda implemented them, a lack of creativity. And the new system is in fact compatible with spellmaking. The only issue with spellmaking that makes any sense is that it is "spreadsheety," but they might as well remove armor or weapons, their stats are spreadsheety.

For spellmaking to cohexist with the new system, we need spell effects, and we need various ways to modify each one, not a static scripted effect. This is easy to accomplish because each scripted spell often uses variables in its formula, which could then be modified by spellmaking. Unique spell effects could be done with spellmaking.

Spell combinations are already being worked on. And if there are combinations that don't work, they can just make those spells not accessable for combining in the spellmaker when the other is chosen. Such as disabling a frost damage effect if a fire damage effect is present.

For spells to be used differently for various contexts, such as a fire trap or a flamethrower effect, we need to have a way to enable various contexts for a spell during spellmaking.
This can be done in a variety of ways.
We could have 1 spell effect become a "primary" effect, and all of its contexts are used, the other spell effects are then applied when the spell hits its target. This is similar to having a fireball spell with healing, one spell takes priority and the other effect is applied as well. The other "forms" of the spell can use a formula to convert the various stats of the "main" "form" that is manipulated. So if you make a fire damage spell of 10 pts with 3 area + heal 2 pts, this could represent the standard form, a basic fireball. We could have a formula manipulate this so that you get 2pts fire damage + .3 pts restore life per second for the flamethrower version of the spell, or 25 pts 5 area fire damage + 8 pts restore life

We could have direct control over each "form" of the spell. So if you can have 3 various contexts of the spell, you can choose each one and directly modify each spell effect on each "form" of the spell. This has the most control, but is most "spreadsheety"

Thats just a few ways you could implement this with spellmaking. Thats something they can implement with minimal use of resources because they know how to do it.
There are a variety of other ways to fix these issues, it takes a little bit of imagination. This could be a single lunch's worth of discussion.

God I love Ainurs anologies....wether they are for or against anything :wub:

Alright, let's say that we do this:

Use the current skyrim system and then create a special room off to one side somewhere where anyone that wants to create a "custom" spell can go and create one. Now both parties are happy.

So what happens when you make two of your custom spells and cast them together? As it is, Skyrim can handle combining dual spells because of the way it is set up. How do you propose it handle the custom spells?

They should automatically require two hands no matter what the custom spell is.

Fair enough.

Would they get stronger if you "charged" them?
Would you be able to change them from touch to target on the fly?
How about the continuous use "flamethrower" mode, would that work on custom spells?
Could you leave them as a trap?

All those things you can do on the fly with the new system and pre-made spells. How would the custom spells be affected?

More to the point, I'm wondering exactly what spells you want to make.

It is NOT the sole purpose or even the core purpose of an RPG to become as powerful as the game allows, even though many prefer to play that way. Those who do, do it because they want to be exceptionally powerful. And when one becomes extraordinarily powerful, it sets one apart. One becomes more formidable than the majority of those surrounding one, by definition. If you cannot do this, if either due to scalling and a majority or sizeable minority becoming as strong as you are with your every advancement OR due to strict limitations and caps placed upon your advancement and abilities, then becoming an exceptionally powerful character is placed beyond your reach.

It doesn't matter how bright and bombastic a fireball you can cast. If it takes you just as long to bring down your foes as it did when you could barely summon enough flame to light a candle, then you aren't impressing anybody and there really isn't anything impressive about you. Sure, you know your character has advanced, in theory. . . but in application, it doesn't really seem like he's made a damned bit of progress.

The hypothesis some here are setting forth astounds me. It is essentially stating that the entire point of the game is to become as powerful as the game allows, but that no matter how powerful you become the game should always provide you with significant challanges at every turn, even though, in theory, one of the principal goals of becoming as powerful as you can manage is to diminish the severity of the challanges facing you. At least in an open world RPG.

In a linear game, you might be leveling just to see what kind of monsters are hidden on level 10 of the wicked Ogre-sorcerers tower, but in an open world, if you are power leveling, then a core intention is to become. . . wait for it. . . more powerful. And if the only character you are becoming more powerful than is your former self. . . well what the hell was the point? Is this some old Dr. Phil "I know I'm the best me I can be," therapy session?

You want the trappings of power without any actual potency? I find the logic very lacking.

If your goal is to become as powerful as the game allows, do so, and when you find yourself beating the living daylights out of ogres, lich lords, ancient vampires and Knights of THe Legion, smile, and know that you are the master!

If, on the other hand, you want challange unending, don't go searching out those weapons and powers that would turn you into a living legend. Don't upgrade a single spell. It is actually MUCH easier to avoid gaining more powerful spells than it is to avoid getting a hold of powerul armour at the higher levels, because mega spells don't drop in random loot.


But don't ruin other people's game because you cannot make up your mind between whether you want to be constantly challanged in your combat encounters, or whether you want to be an especially powerful warlock or warrior.

Really! Can you imagine Gandalf complaining, "man, I wish these goblins were tougher, and stopped running away when I set off these magical explosions?" Dumbledore complaining about how the Deatheaters just cannot seem to block his spells, and how their curses hardly ever seem to work on him? For that matter, can you imagine some random, ineffective apprentice magician saying, "man, I wish I was as powerful as Dumbledore. . . so I could go out and try to get my butt kicked by more powerful wizards than the one's who are kicking it now?" Any moment now Darth Vader will call in complaining of how sad he is that none of the rebel fighters are a match for him.

I am all for the game always having a few beings and creatures in store who really make you work for your supper in a fight. . . but when you become the chief mage of a college of mages, a legendary hero and warlock famed for saving entire cities from certain destruction when the entire contingent of guards were powerless to protect them, and doing one on one battles with dread beings of mythic power and evil. . . dammit you just shouldn't be an easy win for much of anybody, and the average brigand, hedgewizard, necromancer, goblin warlord, crypt haunting vampire should go weak in the knees at the sight of you.

Or it has double the magnitude for double the cost. There could be a formula to convert it from a 1 handed spell to a 2 handed spell, increasing magnitude in such a way, among any other attributes we can modify. Or they could be 2 handed. 2 handed is probably a good trade off, it makes custom spells a bit of a set back as well.


It could be done in a number of ways.
We could have a spell effect control another, so that it is usable in all forms of the dominant spell effect. A fire damage + frost spell in Oblivion would have a dominant effect, if the fire damage effect did the most damage then the spell was a fireball, if the frost damage was most dominant than it was a cloud of frost. It could work in a similar way, one effect is dominant and it uses all of the dominant effects forms.

Or we could have control over all forms, when making a spell you make the first effect, say a standard non modified form, and then you can edit each additional form. That gives you direct control over how much damage you do with the flamethrower or trap effect, as well as how much magicka it uses.

We can have a conversion formula to convert magnitudes and other changable fields into the stats for other forms.

There are plenty of ways to do it

*Blushes Mightily*. To quote Bart Simpson when Nelson saluted him for taking anarchy to a new height, "Wow, praise from Ceaser." :wink_smile: Glad I could give you some enjoyment, buddy. . .and glad that in this matter we are on the same side. :foodndrink:

:icecream:

Long winded as always.

Anuir I don't want to quote that monster you just wrote, but riddle me this:

Becoming the powerful character in the game shouldn't be as easy as walking up to the next spell-making altar and selecting "100" from the drop list, should it?

That's basically all you had to do in Oblivion.

Us custom spell creators need no gimmicky charge or flamethrower mode, they'll do what we made them to do at the Altar and thats it. meaning all forms will be crated at the altar, then used in the field without any variation when cast.

Every single gameplay mechanic that differs from the way it was in Morrowind is a gimmick to you, isn't it? Oh, and most people here did create custom spells. It's just that some of us see its issues and limitations, and believe that the way the new system is set up pretty much makes spellmaking obsolete. What are you missing now? Being able to stack more than two spell effects simultaneously, and also naming it something. That's about it.

Friend, throwing the word "gimmicky" in there was pointless and ironically, shows how very hypocritical you are being right now. Whether you walk up to an altar and select "power 100" from the drop list or charge it up to 100 on the fly, it's the same result.

If you create your spell at an altar and set it to target, or cast it at a target on the fly, it's the same result.

If you create your flamethrower spell at an altar or you cast it that way on the fly, same result.

The real difference is that I don't need an altar and you do.

Are you opposed to variation in the field for any particular reason?

I can just do all that 'on the fly' stuff in initial spell creation, then use the right spell at the right time. Leave the 'on the fly' stuff for regular dual wield spells. Have spell creation hidden off like it was in Oblivion. Therefore its totally optional.

Proper balance. You had to be an appropriately high leveled character to use some of those spells. There are plenty of ways to balance it. Change how some spell effects work, make it so some spell effects can't combine. We already had limitations on spellmaking for some spells. Just because they didn't fix it doesn't mean it can't be saved.

"On the fly" stuff can have variation. Maybe you don't charge the spell up long enough and get a wimpy spell. Maybe the flamethrower spell isn't effective enough.

Maybe people think you can edit everything on the fly, where its much more likely you have very little control and you get a handful of premade spells lumped into 1 spell for convienence. Thats all the "on the fly" stuff is, a handful of spells lumped together. I like it, but its being conveyed as if you get a little menu and can directly manipulate everything about it.

On the fly is spell creation. Remember you can bookmark equipment and spells. It's a trivial matter to put together combinations you want to use. Hell on PC you can probably hotkey them. And again, exactly what do you plan to make?

This is fine, and it's probably the most agreeable thing you've ever said, BUT:

You are basically asking for two systems to exist. One, the new skyrim system and all the new features that it brings, and two, the Oblivion altars to exist completely separate from that.

If I make a spell that has a certain effect becasue of the way I made it, I dont need it to have variables when I hold down, or tap a button etc. the spell does exactly what I wanted it to do when I made it, I dont need to 'freewheel' with it. If I ant a different effect, Ill go to the altar and make a different spell. thats why its a gimmick in regards to spell creation, because its not needed and actually confounds the spell you just made. Unless when you make a spell, you have to make it multi optional to factor in all of those button pressing/tappings etc.



its not two systems though, its totally optional spell creation, like in any other game, in fact it would be easier to implement becasue there would be no button tapping/holding/pressing whatever.

But it isn't. You HAVE to attain a certain level of mastery in order to use the more outrageous spells. You cannot create weakness to fire 100, or a 100 damage lightning storm that effects everyone within 10 feet for 10 seconds, or a charm spell that mesmerizes Dremora and Xivalai UNLESS you have already attained a VERY high level in the required school of magic. In short, unless you have dedicated the neccessary time and effort to make yourself a VERY powerful character.

What is the alternative? Having all the arcane knowledge, spell casting skill and magical power of a Gandalf or an Albus Dumbledore. . . but still being completely unable to peform any magic beyond the abilities of Penn and Teller???????????

Right, true. Yes, BUT:

For one thing, I don't think it's fair to assume that the Skyrim system won't allow practiced mages to get any more powerful than they were. Do you really expect that magic won't advance at all, no matter how much skill you develop?

I don't. I forsee new combinations, new effects, maybe even new spells opening up as you level and perk up. Why is that so much different than doing it at the altar? Add in the ability to "freewheel" a bit and adapt a new spell to a new situation on the fly, instead of having to go back home to cook up a new one...

I see the new system as everything Oblivion should have had. The only thing they've done is limit the number of effects you can add at once to 2. Right?

No, but you don't have to have 100 Destruction skill to make a Drain Health 100 pts for 1 second spell, or 100 Illusion to make a Charm 100 for 1 second spell. The direct-damage spells were pretty well-balanced in spell creation, but certain effects meant to be used over time were pretty easy to break. Also, question marks are a threatened species. Please use more care when utilizing them.