So, there has been a lot of debate going on in this forum after the announcement that spell-making might or might not return. Some people are obviously frightened at the thought of it being removed, but what exactly could that mean?

Well, I think I know why they might remove it. (No, it is not because they are simplifying the game.)

Here are the reasons:

1. Quality > Quantity

Spell-making is essentially an oxymoron in Oblivion. You aren't CREATING spells, you are just customizing the basic effects of a basic spell, or combining spells together. Let's use fire damage spell as an example. You basically have the spell effect and the damage it does, the duration of the effect, and the area of the effect. You aren't making a new spell, you are manipulating the variables. When Todd said that it felt too "spreadsheet-y", he wasn't using PR talk. He has a perfectly valid point. Magic becomes less experimental, and more mathematical by calculating what would be most effective with as little magicka used. Magic should be something that is used through trial and error; not spreadsheets and formulas.

How this will make spells better:

If spellmaking is removed, we will have less generic effects like "fire damage for __ sec and __ feet on target". It will also let spells look more unique. For example, it has been confirmed that fire can ignite the environment. This is much better than the random explosion that comes from every generated fire spell.

2. Combining Spells

Combining spells from your left and right hand has already been confirmed. An example has been mentioned where a circle of protection was combined with a chain lightning spell that caused enemies to be shocked if they were to come close to you. This already sounds better than the combination of spells in Oblivion, which only combined the effects rather than creating a whole new effect. This is true spellmaking; not the manipulation of simple variables that we so inadvertently defend from Oblivion.

So, do you believe spell-making should return?

I don't see how Quality > Quantity fits as you could make a spell with as high of quality as you want.


As for it not being in: I don't really care. I never even used it that much.

I've never been into spell making. Hell I've never made a single spell. But I fail to see how a completely optional feature, that you could simply ignore from the beginning being gone is "awesome". :confused:

If every fire spell looks exactly the same, I would rather them just include one spell.

Well see, there are some people who get really bent out of shape about what some other player, somewhere else, might be doing in their single-player game that can't affect the concerned party's single-player game in any way and feel a need to make sure nobody else is "cheating" against the computer.

I don't grok it myself, maybe it's rooted in a pathological fear that someone else might be having more fun than they are? Rampant control freak syndrome? They're secretly the incarnation of Jyggalag, and the chaos of others not follwoing the prescribed order causes them pain? I dunno. :shrug:

i thought it was in?

IGN: Will there still be an opportunity in Skyrim to create custom spells? Can you enchant?

Todd Howard: We do have crafting in each archetype, and the magic one is Enchanting, so you can forge your own magic items and tweak their properties. http://pc.ign.com/articles/115/1158651p2.html

I′m happy about spell making being gone since they can now focus on creating nice spells to learn from trainers and spells from trainers will actually have some appeal. I mean how many of you actually cared that this and that mage was a "master of Alteration" or "A master of Destruction" and had spells X and spells Y. I bet most of you just bought the cheapest version of those spells and then made your own custom better spells at the spell making altar. Basically it was a waste of developers time to even make those strong spells it would seem.

This will add value to the strong spells and it makes it easier for Bethesda to balance the creatures around how strong the spells you cast are, since Bethesda will roughly know what spells your average mage will have at his disposal.

Spellmaking in oblivion was horrible. Knowing I have the option to create any spell I want and be mega powerful with it annoys me. Its like knowing theres a piece of armour in the game that gives you 100% resist damage, you say youre never going to use it becauase its overpowered, but you use it anyway because its in the game. I rather they leave spell making for a mod.

I think its better to earn or buy your spells, knowing youve accomplished something, rather than use some silly stand and make insanely overpowered ones

Enchanting =/= Spell Creation. "...the magic one is Enchanting..." appears to make it clear Spell Creation is out, replaced by Enchanting which is "...the magic one..." so far as crafting systems goes.

To be honest I was one of the people saying "No spellmaking... WHAT?!" but I completely agree with your point. I never really looked at it as manipulating variables, And hearing that example of the Circle Of Protection and Chain Lightning spell I think that sounds 10x better then what Oblivion had. And to think, They'll probably put in as many if not more spells then Oblivion so there will be tons of combination possibilities. I am looking forward to this.

I'm not so worried about spellcrafting as I am about enchanting. I just hope enchanting will remain largely the way it has been, with the ability to change the numbers for your effects.

The reason I'm worried about this is because enchanting and spellcrafting have been the same exact format in previous ES games. If Todd wants to remove spellcrafting because it's too "spread-sheety", I can't imagine how awful enchanting will become.

Including spell-making would effect everyone, whether you use it or not. If it is included, it would have to be done completely different than that which was in Oblivion. Combining spells in both of your hands wouldn't work with the Oblivion system, so that would have to be scrapped to make room for the Oblivion style spell-making. The only real purpose of the spell-making in Oblivion was to make better spells than what you had, or to combine spell effects. If they make it to where spells level with you in Skyrim, there would be no point in having the spell-making system from Oblivion, plus it would make more sense. One fire spell that can be used in multiple ways (i.e. tap to send a fireball or hold for a stream of fire) would make customization obsolete.

To say that spell-making only affects the people who use it is wrong; it effects everyone because it SIMPLIFIES the game.

Thank you for proving, beyond any doubt, the point I was trying to make. :thumbsup:

This! I may not use it because I have spell mods now, but if I were a console player I'd want spellmaking. Plus, it's pretty cool to create new spells in game. There have already been two threads on this topic, I don't see why another is necessary.

It won't be missed on my part.

Fable 3 did spell combinations too, and it was really ass. Much better to wait and see before jumping on the new streamlining bandwagon.

By this I thought you meant that I was being over-concerned with how other people play the game. Sorry for the confusion. :foodndrink:

Exactly, and thats why I dont like it being gone.
Im not a big fan of dumbing things down.
I also do not care one bit about looks, so that spells now look fantastic, meh.
Still, compared to Daggerfall a mage in Oblivion was nothing more than a hedgewizard, because spellmaking had been gimped beyond belief.
And now it is just gone, meaning that they took the magic out of magic and that doesnt make me happy.

Im very curious about enchanting too. If spellmaking is too 'spreadsheety' then enchanting surely is too.
So I fully expect an enchantment system a la sigil stones. No thought, no fuss, just put the stone on the sword.
En-chantment.
No, Im not a happy camper when it comes to this, it might very well be the death of the TES games.

I think the nice thing about spell making is that it encourages emergent gameplay. We can think of a tactic that the developers would not have thought of by using the rules of spell making to our advantage. The whole joy in open world is emergent gameplay in the first place, so removing spell making is kind of a dumb move.

If we were to be concerned about everything that correlates between Skyrim and Fable 3, we would have nothing to look forward to. Even to this day, I can't think of anything Fable did right.

While spellmaking was in need of an overhaul removing it wasn't a great decision.

I have to disagree. You make valid points, but there were aspects of spellcrafting that I enjoyed:

1) The spreadsheet argument is correct in terms of min-maxing effects, but not all of us did that. Some of us wanted to create combinations of effects that were not available. Here's an example:

Holy Light
Absorb Health on Target
Turn Undead on Target
Light on Target

Casting that spell in Morrowind and Oblivion really added to the immersion of the game. And as you can see, there are no variables in the spell.

2) Nothing to say here. I've yet to see how combinations work in Skyrim

That's not reason enough to embrace change anyway; How well do you know about the new system to actually say its comparatively better than spellmaking, that isn't just nit picking at the flaws of the old? And why spellmaking cannot be improved in anyway that makes having less is better?

If they liked, they could've made any fire effect set the environment on fire.
If they liked, they could've combination of effects create new effects.

Spellmaking in Oblivion was really bad imo, as it was too overpowered, and made Magic Trainers near-pointless.
I didn't use the system that much, but I still think that removing it might not be the best, because many people loved the concept.

BUT, I do think gamesas tried improving on it, but never found a way to make it perfect. We know that they most often tries to implement what the players want in the game, but they also want to do it perfectly, and therefore not all features are in at the end.

Taking away customization = Awesome