Haven't seen this thread since after the podcast and thought it might be worth mentioning they are trying to find a way to implement some kind of spellmaking, as long as it isn't just picking things from a list and tweaking the effects. From the podcast (I borrowed this from the thread where the person was kind enough to type everything said accurately):



In the first part of his response he says they have ideas on how to solve it but nothing official has come of it yet. This has refilled my hopes

Yeah, it's interesting that he says that they have some ideas on how to solve it... Is the issue that they're pretty sure they're going to have some sort of spell-crafting, but they're not sure which of the ideas they're going to use? Or are there some technical issues to do with implementation? Or what?

I think it is implementation. It would be incredibly hard to do it on the fly like combine a Drain Marksman spell with a Shock Damage spell by equipping both and casting both at the same time. If Shock Damage had a force lightning effect like fire has Flamethrower but Drain Marksmen doesn't have a "flamethrower" version then it wouldn't work. I wouldn't mind the spreadsheet, I liked it. This was my idea if there was the old spell creation idea:

Variables
Spell Part - The effects you make the new spell with. Examples are Fire Damage, Restore Health, Paralyze, Invisibility, etc.
Effect - Like Projectile, Touch, Constant Effect (Flamethrower), Rune, etc.
Hostile - Is the spell meant to cause harm or good? Good Spells like Restore Health cannot be mixed with hurtful spells like Fire Damage

SpellSpell Part 1 (Hostile) has possible effects A, B, C, and DSpell Part 2 (Hostile) has possible effects A, C, and D

Final Spell would only have effects that all the Spell Parts had, in this case A, C, and D. It would also be Hostile, meaning if you cast it at someone it would be an assault charge. It would use the effects of whatever spell is on the top of the list so if Spell Part 1 was Fire it would always look like a Fire Spell, if it was shock it would always lool like a Shock Spell. You would not be able to add effects like these:

Spell Part 3 (Hostile) has possible effects E and F

(Can't be added because it doesn't have any effects that the other Spell Parts have.)

Spell Part 4 (Non Hostile) has possible effects A, B, C, and D

(Can't be added because you can't mix a Hostile and Non Hostile Spell)

The beauty of this system is it prevents a lot of the Uber Spells exploitable in Oblivion like having a Weakness to Magicka 100% spell and then mixing a spell that has a weak hostile effect and a strong beneficial effect to power heal.

So how would that work if you want to combine Fire and Paralyse? If Fire has effect X, and Paralyse has effect Y, then they have different effects, so by your system it looks like there won't be a Fire + Paralyse spell... ???

Much as I hate to lose custom spells, magic sounds pretty interesting in this game.

I have to disagree completely. What he's describing is the mystery of the unknown which adds the mystical element to magic in most fiction.

Thing is, that's just not possible in games. Magic is not made any more or less "spread-sheety" by the presence of spellmaking; people are still going to crunch numbers to determine if Wizard's Fury is a better option than Finger of the Mountain. Spells by nature are predictable attacks operating within hardcoded parameters, it's a friggin' video game, for pete's sake. A glorified calculator.

It's interesting how he attempts to illustrate his view of magic by listing several magical effects. Almost like he's trying to get fans to drool over the idea of magic mines, glossing over his lack of actual reasoning for no spellmaking.

I think the problem is both a technical and conceptual one.

It isn't just "fire damage" anymore. There are separate spells that do fire damage in different forms. There's the "adhere to surface" fire (spraying the ceiling, etc.) There's the fireball that explodes spell. There's the placeable rune that explodes spell. Etc. So it doesn't sound like it's just a matter of "can we combine spells?" but rather one of, "can we combine these various new types of spells with very specific physical characteristics with each other?" That's a much more complicated question. That's a conceptual challenge.

Then there is the technical aspect of it. With the new engine and with everything having shadows now, and with them wanting spells to be impressive to behold, I have to imagine that fire is going to look pretty sweet. Imagine the challenges of combining fire, shadows, frost, and other effects in terms of performance. That could be an issue, too.

We know the "spreadsheet" style spellmaking from the previous games is out. So whatever they implement will have to differ from that, and overcome those two challenges.

When I said effects above (like Effects A, B, C, and D) Those are the ways a spell can be cast. We know Fire can be Projectile, Touch, Flamethrower type attack (let's call it Spray), and Rune. Those are the effects so:
Projectile = A
Touch = B
Spray = C
Rune = D

A Paralyze Spell can be Projectile, Touch, and for the sake of argument, let's say you can cast Paralyze as a Rune Trap also. You cannot, however, use it as a Spray attack. So if we go back to my previous example:

Spell Part 1 (Fire) has effects Projectile, Touch, Spray, and Rune
Spell Part 2 (Paralyze) has effects Projectile, Touch, and Rune

The Final Spell would only be able to use Projectile, Touch, and Rune as those are the only effects that Fire and Paralyze can BOTH use. Paralyze doesn't have Spray so the new spell can't use Spray. Understand now? If not then reply and I will try and explain better when I wake up, I am tired. Just remember, Spell Part can be Fire Damage, Restore Health, Paralyze, any of the basic spells you can cast. When I say Effect I refer to how a Basic Spell can be cast, like a projectile or a rune or whatever.

Edit: @unfringed: I agree he did basically dodge the actual question, he does for many things.
@Vamphaery: That's why my system would work, if Paralyze couldn't adhere to surface but could do the other stuff Fire Damage can do then they could be combined, the new spell just couldn't adhere to surfaces because one of it's basic spells couldn't. the only problem is my solution is already screwed because of the no spreadsheet thing. It's a shame too as that is my favorite thing about spellmaking, I play on PC so if I could it would look MORE like Excel lol.

Please explain how this means it's impossible (or even difficult) to give the player the ability to craft his own custom "sticky fire" spell that lasts half as long and hits twice as hard.

Because they wish to do away with that kind of, as they call it, "spreadsheet" approach to spellmaking. They don't want anything to take us out of the actual use of and impressiveness (visually and thematically) of magic. Their words (paraphrased,) not mine.

Right - sorry, I forgot that you meant something different by "effect" than is meant by the games when they talk of "spell effects".

One thought about the system: how would you vary one part of a spell independently of the other? What if you wanted to Touch Paralyse + Rune Fire - (you paralyse the enemy, then run backwards, and as he comes at you after the paralysis wears off, he runs into the rune) - ???

You are missing the point a bit. He is saying that it would be hard to mix 2 spells together if one of them could be cast like say, a Rune but the other could not. It is already taken care of in my idea but it won't happen because of the no spreadsheet rule.

You can customize spells from what I understand which IMO is better than flat out making any spell you want. The spellmaking system in oblivion made me lose interest in magic mainly because it provided so many ways to exploit spells and take all the fun out of combat. Unless you are 11 yr old or don't like a challenge... then you might want it the same as it was in oblivion.

Because they wish to do away with that kind of, as they call it, "spreadsheet" approach to spellmaking. They don't want anything to take us out of the actual use of and impressiveness (visually and thematically) of magic. Their words (paraphrased,) not mine.

If I were to rephrase what I wrote, I'd say "please explain how the lack of being able to make a custom stick fire spell makes the game less "spread-sheety" ". It doesn't. They will never emulate that mystical unknown element to magic due to the limitations of video gaming itself. Video game magic is crappy Goodkind magic, while what they're trying to create is Tolkein.

It's going to be spreadsheety as [censored], just without spellmaking altars. Magic will still be predictable and mundane.

Customize, spellmaking. Semantics. What you're describing is poor game design, failing to account for various exploits in beta, not a flaw with making spells as a mechanic.

Maybe, maybe not. I can only enumerate what they've said.

There is an open topic for spell making and the spell system in skyrim

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1164241-new-magic-system-in-skyrim/page__st__20

The way it's described, it sounds like spell making is going to be one of those things that Bethesda will only do if they can find a way to do it properly, which sounds like a good idea if you ask me. What's the point in having a mechanic like spell making if it's just going to be half hearted and in this also causes related mechanics, in this case, spells themselves to suffer? In any case, from the way Todd Howard puts it, it sounds like we MIGHT still see spellmaking if Bethesda can find a way to do it properly. But for those who really want it, I'd hardly recommend getting you're hopes too high.



On that, I can only disaagree. While obviously, due to the limitations of gameplay, the full magic that can be achieved in a novel or movie is not possible simply because what magic can do will always be limited by gameplay mechanics, it IS possible to create a magic system that has much more "flare" to it in look and feel, and has more distinct variety to individual spells, this isn't some unrealistic goal no one has achieved before, it's already been done in other games that are not the Elder Scrolls. Of course there's still a limit to what can be done due to gameplay mechanics, but the developers have freedom to design more interesting and varied spells than the Elder Scrolls has ever had, and this, I think, is helped by the fact that these games don't have spell making.

I've always found magic in the Elder Scrolls series incredibly boring, much more so than in any other good fantasy RPG I've played, and certainly, a lot of this comes from the need to create a system that makes the creation of custom spells easy.



In that case, can you present a better implementation of spellmaking? No? I'm sure I can't, because the only other game I can think of that has it is Morrowind, and it's spell making is exactly the same as Oblivion's, except you don't need to join the Mages Guild to do it and the spells available are different. So if you can't find an example of a game that has spell making and does it well, then how can you be so sure it's not a problem with the concept of spell making itself?

And customization and spellmaking are different, because spellmaking implies creating your own spells from scratch, customization may just mean taking something that already exists, but modifying it to better suit your needs or interests. Of course, with the way spell making was in past games, it was pretty much that anyway, you didn't actually create new effects, you just took generic ones and made versions with different strength, durations or areas of effect, maube you'd even combine two or more effects into the same spell, but I still never felt like the spells I made myself were a completely original creation of my own, more like just a generic spell customized to suit my needs.

Again, I think we're getting hung up on semantics. Spellmaking in the TES sense is mixing and tweaking premade effects. It's never been otherwise. While it appears Skyrim will have a good deal more effects than the previous games, that doesn't mean spellcrafting has to be axed. The only "arguments" against spellmaking are concerns over specific conflicts (mixing mine spells with projectile fireball spells, for example), kinks that would have to be worked out by Bethesda. There's nothing wrong with prohibiting certain combinations of effects at the altar.

Yes, you're right, because you the player are in control of the magic, it can't be mystical and beyond our understanding. No argument there. But let's try a more charitable interpretation of what Bethesda are going for - something which is not an obvious non-starter.

I think what they're trying to do is make magic feel more tangible and concrete in its execution; and, similarly, they want its customisation to feel more tangible and concrete. So if you are really varying a spell, it should feel like you're doing that in the way you play the game. They don't want something like in Morrowind, where the difference between a fireball and flamethrower might be expressed as one spell doing instant damage, the other doing damage over time - but both feel the same in the way you play, because you just equip the spell and hit cast. In contrast, in Skyrim, the difference between a fireball and flamethrower is much more tangible to you as the player. It's about making the experience of playing a mage, as someone who can control and these magical forces, more tangible and concrete.

This doesn't make it unpredictable or mystical, or anything like that. It's just trying to do for magic what they did for combat - make it feel less like it's you rolling the dice and watching the outcome, but rather you swinging the sword or casting the spell.

Sorry, I don't think I quite managed to describe it in the best way. But hopefully that's at least a reasonably good first approximation.

I loved what they said bout spells! IM GETTING HYPE!!!

Two Worlds II has spell creation. In fact, its the only way to cast a spell. You can even name them, but its the only good part of the game.

Yay!, it's still possible

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1164241-new-magic-system-in-skyrim/ on this already