Split Careers of Warrior / Thief / Mage Contiunous Qeust : V - Skyrim

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:34 am

intelligence fighting dextery , but for fighting I shoul dbetter have said Mike tyson lol ...

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:03 am

intelligence fighting dextery , but for fighting I shoul dbetter have said Mike tyson lol ...

Are you really using loaded, specific, and unrelated examples to try to back up a point? Really?

» Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:36 pm

How about self-limitation? I can make my characters increase the skills that fit them, and ignore the ones that don't. In Oblivion, my Breton Mage has 100 in all magic skills, and about 5-7 in everything else. (I found skill books that increase the other skills.) I don't need those skills. My attributes are:
Strength: 30
Intelligence: 100
Willpower: 100
Agility: 51 (I had to choose an attribute at the level up screen after I capped off INT and WIL)
Speed: 68 (Same as above)
Endurance: 30
Personality: 100
Luck: 56

» Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:28 pm

what about the warrior mages, or whatever hey were called I forgot.

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:32 am

You can be leader of all 4 factions ... And that is not good ... But if you don't want that, then don't. If I make a warrior character, I wont join any other guild. And I will roleplay a warrior as it should be. But yea, it needs to have restrictions ...

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:01 am

You can be leader of all 4 factions ... And that is not good ... But if you don't want that, then don't. If I make a warrior character, I wont join any other guild. And I will roleplay a warrior as it should be. But yea, it needs to have restrictions ...

eh... Nevermind lol...

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:30 am

You can be leader of all 4 factions ... And that is not good ... But if you don't want that, then don't. If I make a warrior character, I wont join any other guild. And I will roleplay a warrior as it should be. But yea, it needs to have restrictions ...

I don't know how this keeps turning onto the guilds, though I do agree that joining one should keep you out of another.

Look, people, if you feel like a Barbarian shouldn't know magic, then don't learn magic.

And stop complaining about the two starter spells in Oblivion, this isn't a new thing, it was done in Arena as well.

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:53 am

I think alot are missing the point PROMETHEUS_ts is getting at.

Whats the point (aside from RPing) of playing a pure mage when a warrior can be just as powerful at magics, only also be strong at fighting. The more pure a class you have the more benifits you should be able ot get....or the reverse, the more multi-class your character is the more disadvantages you have to face. if you look to other older classic RPGing (Neverwinter Knights for example) the more you multi-class the more disadvantages you face, while also getting extra abilities to make for it. This allows some multi classing....but it stops you being an alrounder at everything.

A real life example....should a master at martial arts be able to be outclassed in a fight by another master of martial arts....that also is a top scientist? The guy who has devoted his life to training a single skill should be better at it then another who has spilt his time at learning two.

If they take the current ES route, then picking a class will only matter for the first 30 levels....after that point in any ES game you start being a jack of all trades....able to use a sword to kill a masterful oppenent, pick impossibly hard locks and cast powerful spells.....leaving no real point in developing a character.

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:03 am

Why is that silly?

Because being the leader of a faction should have consequences as well. The thieves guild sees killing people as a taboo, where the Dark Brotherhood advocates it. If you were to be a member of the Dark Brotherhood, you shouldn't also be allowed to become a member of the Thieves' Guild. It doesn't make rational sense and shouldn't be the case. If you are a person who typically leans more towards melee combat (like myself), you probably have no business being in the Mage's Guild as you probably can't really do any magic (if you also know magic, then more power to you). It doesn't make sense that you can work your way up all the way to the Arch-mage rank, while being the leader of the dark brotherhood, thieves guild, fighters guild, etc. In Oblivion you can do all of these things without consequence, and the NPCs don't even really recognize this is happening.

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:53 am

Just bring back skill requirements. Job done.

» Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:18 pm

I think alot are missing the point PROMETHEUS_ts is getting at.

Whats the point (aside from RPing) of playing a pure mage when a warrior can be just as powerful at magics, only also be strong at fighting. The more pure a class you have the more benifits you should be able ot get....or the reverse, the more multi-class your character is the more disadvantages you have to face. if you look to other older classic RPGing (Neverwinter Knights for example) the more you multi-class the more disadvantages you face, while also getting extra abilities to make for it. This allows some multi classing....but it stops you being an alrounder at everything.

A real life example....should a master at martial arts be able to be outclassed in a fight by another master of martial arts....that also is a top scientist? The guy who has devoted his life to training a single skill should be better at it then another who has spilt his time at learning two.

If they take the current ES route, then picking a class will only matter for the first 30 levels....after that point in any ES game you start being a jack of all trades....able to use a sword to kill a masterful oppenent, pick impossibly hard locks and cast powerful spells.....leaving no real point in developing a character.

This

Its like being born 240 pound, then for the rest of your life you train and prepare for olympic weightlifting specializing for power/strength and developing exceptional fast acting muscle fiber types. And then when you're of 30 age you decide you want to be a marathon runner. Not gonna happen pal, forget it.

I personally don't mind the more ''open'' class system, but thats because I've been a gamer for pretty long wich makes me more adaptive to game mechanics. But for the average casual gamer, its hard to adapt to mechanics they do not quite understand. Most just play without giving a damn, and then get stuck because they didn't play the game ''optimally''. This actually happend the first time for me also, but I quickly replayed the game and adapted.

I'l actually be surprised if TESV will keep the same class system. They might just head into standard ''generic'' direction such as Mass Effect class system, or that of Dragon Age, or World of Warcraft etc, where class is more specific, more specialized and unique.

In the end I'm personally more concerned about other things that Modders cannot change. I won't play the game vanilla anyway, because I know the game will be designed for consoles in the end.

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:32 am

Here's the breakdown. You can be the best swordsman, the best mage, AND the best thief in the world, all at the same time, but your character better have 200 hours on him. I'm not saying this because I want to limit people, but because otherwise it's meaningless. Might as well just buy an action game where you start off as an uber being and there is no skill progression.

Another reason to raise the skill cap. If each skill could be maxed to 200, it would take a lot longer to reach "perfection" especially if you split your time between unrelated skills. I don't want people to be shoehorned into one of 3 classes, but I also don't want people to be handed the perfect hybrid of every single skill. I want to see the difference between playing a sneaky warrior who shoots arrows, and a armored mage who uses alchemy to poison daggers.

» Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:27 pm

I think alot are missing the point PROMETHEUS_ts is getting at.

Whats the point (aside from RPing) of playing a pure mage when a warrior can be just as powerful at magics, only also be strong at fighting. The more pure a class you have the more benifits you should be able ot get....or the reverse, the more multi-class your character is the more disadvantages you have to face. if you look to other older classic RPGing (Neverwinter Knights for example) the more you multi-class the more disadvantages you face, while also getting extra abilities to make for it. This allows some multi classing....but it stops you being an alrounder at everything.

A real life example....should a master at martial arts be able to be outclassed in a fight by another master of martial arts....that also is a top scientist? The guy who has devoted his life to training a single skill should be better at it then another who has spilt his time at learning two.

If they take the current ES route, then picking a class will only matter for the first 30 levels....after that point in any ES game you start being a jack of all trades....able to use a sword to kill a masterful oppenent, pick impossibly hard locks and cast powerful spells.....leaving no real point in developing a character.

Whats the point of doing anything? Your arguement is once again an opinion just like everyone else's here. Some of us want the limitations of confined and pre formed development, while others, myself included, do not. It is that simple, we do not want other classic RPG games we want elderscrolls. If you want a different RPG go play them.

And devotion and time spent does not equal skill, unfortunately some people are just better at things than others.

Besides you are comparing a purist to a multitasker using time as the variable. In an elderscrolls game with the same amount of time input a pure would, in fact, outclass a hybrid character. Anyway this topic has three or four threads and they are all just opinions being thrown at each other. None of us are right or wrong, we just want different things and we aren't all going to get exactly what we want.

» Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:00 pm

Whats the point of doing anything?

And devotion and time spent does not equal skill, unfortunately some people are just better at things than others.

Well...have you noticed how sometimes celebrities go crazy, get into weird religions, go psychopathic, etc? It's because they're bored with life. Having nearly unlimitless money and fame, they've had all the gourmet meals, exotic vacations, and meaningless six they could ever want. And they get bored. Whereas Bob and Betty in Kansas are happy to break away from the 9-5, grab a pizza and see a movie. I got bored with Oblivion, real quick, and yet I still get the urge to play Morrowind to this day.

But on to the second topic. Yes and No. Kenya has a history of producing world class sprinters and distance runners. But take some random Kenyan and throw 'em into a race against a trained olympian of any background, and they will lose, always. Now, if you take that Kenyan and he spends hours a day training, he might win the gold.

This is part of the reason I think racial bonus' should be added to the final 100, ie, if Nords start with 50 and Elves start with 40, Nords should get to be 150 to Elves 140.

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:20 am

Indeed, being able to be an Arch Mage, but being magic illiterate was silly. However, I don't want to be restricted. What if I'm a Nightblade or a Battlemage? What if I'm a rogue? No restrictions.

What makes TES fun is the freedom.

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:25 am

ill have to disagree on this one, unlike games like baldurs gate and neverwinter nights and mostly baldurs gate where you picked class and remained as that through the entire game, you could also pick companions up to 5.

but in TES you play alone meaning that if you are a warrior you aint going to have a mage companion.

in this case i think limiting the development of the character detracts from the fun

im not saying warriors should know spells from the beggining or have it easy learning magic but like older TES games you should be able to learn all the skills

doing this adds versatility to a character and besides you can do the fighter, mages, thief and dark brotherhoods quests with a single char as opposed to having to make 4 characters.

again beeing a warrior it should be hard for him to learn the ways of a mage or thief, but with enough effort he should be able to do it.

that is my opinion

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:07 am

I'd like guild skill requirements so you can't join the Fighter's Guild if your combat skills are too low, for example.

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:59 am

I feel like from a true RPG stand point it was a little ridiculous that there aren't any specific skill requirements to the guilds. I think that it should be acceptable for the same character to be Grandmaster of Fighters/Mages/Thieves guild, but only if they possess the skills required by those disciplines. Morrowind had it right with ensuring this by having skill requirements for advancement, which also ensured that you were a substantially high enough level to be a Guildmaster. On a side note, i think mortal kombat was a very good game, but donkey kong is better!

» Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:17 pm

Well...have you noticed how sometimes celebrities go crazy, get into weird religions, go psychopathic, etc? It's because they're bored with life. Having nearly unlimitless money and fame, they've had all the gourmet meals, exotic vacations, and meaningless six they could ever want. And they get bored. Whereas Bob and Betty in Kansas are happy to break away from the 9-5, grab a pizza and see a movie. I got bored with Oblivion, real quick, and yet I still get the urge to play Morrowind to this day.

But on to the second topic. Yes and No. Kenya has a history of producing world class sprinters and distance runners. But take some random Kenyan and throw 'em into a race against a trained olympian of any background, and they will lose, always. Now, if you take that Kenyan and he spends hours a day training, he might win the gold.

This is part of the reason I think racial bonus' should be added to the final 100, ie, if Nords start with 50 and Elves start with 40, Nords should get to be 150 to Elves 140.

That would be your opinion, scientifically they are usually borderline psychotic to begin with, and what did that have to do with my post? I like stronger racials as well, but this has nothing to do with the Op. Sorry I just fail to see what you are getting at man =/ And I'm the same way as far as Oblivion vs Morrowind, in my opinion Morrowind was just a deeper better game, but I get the feeling you think I am on the wrong side of the fence or somthing. Heck like I said I don't see what you are trying to say.

@ Mr. Tissue Box, yeah that makes sense. Unless you have really good persuasion skills or alot of money and you bribe or sleeze your way in, but that seems a little too complicated to be designed yet.

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:12 am

Because being the leader of a faction should have consequences as well.

And why MUST membership in one guild prevent you from being a member of another?
No reason except completely arbitrary limitation.

The thieves guild sees killing people as a taboo, where the Dark Brotherhood advocates it. If you were to be a member of the Dark Brotherhood, you shouldn't also be allowed to become a member of the Thieves' Guild. It doesn't make rational sense and shouldn't be the case.

Unless your character is able to keep his membership relatively anonymous or convince either/both parties that it is in their own interest to overlook the dual membership.

If you are a person who typically leans more towards melee combat (like myself), you probably have no business being in the Mage's Guild as you probably can't really do any magic (if you also know magic, then more power to you). It doesn't make sense that you can work your way up all the way to the Arch-mage rank, while being the leader of the dark brotherhood, thieves guild, fighters guild, etc. In Oblivion you can do all of these things without consequence, and the NPCs don't even really recognize this is happening.

Why doesn't it make sense? If I've got the attributes and the skills, why can't I?

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:21 am

I think alot are missing the point PROMETHEUS_ts is getting at.

Whats the point (aside from RPing) of playing a pure mage when a warrior can be just as powerful at magics, only also be strong at fighting. The more pure a class you have the more benifits you should be able ot get....or the reverse, the more multi-class your character is the more disadvantages you have to face. if you look to other older classic RPGing (Neverwinter Knights for example) the more you multi-class the more disadvantages you face, while also getting extra abilities to make for it. This allows some multi classing....but it stops you being an alrounder at everything.

Just answered your own question right there. As for multiclassing penalties, that's a purely D&D trope, and likely because all players could only invest the same amount of time into their character progression. In real life, you can have mastery in as many disciplines as you have time, energy, motivation, and talent for. This is why, every single day, you see some people that can master a wide range of things, and others who can't.

A real life example....should a master at martial arts be able to be outclassed in a fight by another master of martial arts....that also is a top scientist? The guy who has devoted his life to training a single skill should be better at it then another who has spilt his time at learning two.

Why not? Again, it happens ALL THE TIME. Not everyone is equal and this goes for both latent talent and motivation to excel. Some people are better at learning things, some people are more naturally predisposed to a various skill. Some people are both. Some bypass both by sheer hard work. But if you look around you, its easy enough to find a plethora of examples of people who excel and master multiple disciplines.

If they take the current ES route, then picking a class will only matter for the first 30 levels....after that point in any ES game you start being a jack of all trades....able to use a sword to kill a masterful oppenent, pick impossibly hard locks and cast powerful spells.....leaving no real point in developing a character.

ONLY if you take the time to practice those skills. If you aren't paying the price in practice, those skills are not advancing.

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:15 am

Heck like I said I don't see what you are trying to say.

You just asked "What's the point of doing anything?" and my answer was that we only choose to do one thing because we are prevented from doing another, and that's what drives us. For people who are given everything (celebrities, people who play Oblivion) all at once, it quickly becomes boring, they have no where left to go.

And you said that "devotion and time does not equal skill" and I argued that it did.

» Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:49 pm

You just asked "What's the point of doing anything?" and my answer was that we only choose to do one thing because we are prevented from doing another, and that's what drives us. For people who are given everything (celebrities, people who play Oblivion) all at once, it quickly becomes boring, they have no where left to go.

And you said that "devotion and time does not equal skill" and I argued that it did.

Ok that is your opinion my statement was a counter to the post that I quoted. If you read it I guarentee my post will make much more sense. Plus from a psychological point of veiw they do not have everything and they are usually mentally unsound. Devotion and time does equal skill, but I simply meant that it doesn't necessarily make you better than someone who in time devoted would be considered a novice. Like I said, in my opinion, all three of these threads have been nothing but opinions being thrown at each other.

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:15 am

The real problem is that there is no real depth to the skills, at least in oblivion. Melee character that can only swing a weapon... all the powerskills are the same except maybe knocking down a target with 1 of them, but only if they are advancing on you..... WoW has tons of ways to go about attacking people with various classes leading to all kinds of different strategies. What is the strategy in switching from a blade to a blunt to a bow .... they were all so monotonous. Its no wonder I never tried an elder scrolls game before Oblivion... I thought they would be dephtless and Oblivion was. If the skills had depth people would not feel the need to master everything because they could make strategies for taking down opponents with what they have. I tried mentioning this before and people shouted "No skill bonus choices, because that would force me to specialize and I want to do anything I want" because giving a choice in how you use a skill instead of just mindlessly swinging a mace the same way at 1-100 really is really unique. I guess they are so afraid that they might actually enjoy a skill and freak out that they may clear the game without maxing out their characters. I do not say to limit skill growth... but seriously... there is no reason NOT to work on all skills in a TES game. If TES 5 is like 4 with such limited gameplay.... ya I wont bother because I can not role-play my combat.

» Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:28 am

The real problem "in my opinion" is that "I find" there ~~(is~~) "to be a type of depth" ~~(no real depth)~~ "that I am not used to or do not prefer" ~~(to the~~) "dictating how" skills "function", at least in oblivion. "a" Melee character that can only swing a weapon...("no corrections here folks") all the powerskills are "in my opinion similar" ~~(the same~~) except "for where they differ from each other" ~~(maybe knocking down a target with 1 of them),~~ ~~(but only if they are advancing on you.....)~~ "A unrelated game with a completely different framework and concept" ~~(WoW~~) has tons of ways to go about attacking people with various classes leading to all kinds of different strategies "for combat with a completely different system and formula". "In my opinion" ~~(What is the strategy in~~) switching from a blade to a blunt to a bow "is not a change in stratagy".... they "the fighting and skills" ~~(were all so~~) "were" monotonous. ~~(Its no wonder I never tried an elder scrolls game before Oblivion... I thought they would be dephtless and Oblivion was.~~) "I have an educated opinion of a series compliled through delicate anolysies of limited play on the most recent in the series" If the skills had "my idea" "of" depth "I and people with similar tastes" ~~(people~~) would not feel the need to master everything"," because they could "determine the set and most efficient" ~~(make~~) strategies for taking down opponents with "the universal tools that" ~~(what they~~) "everybody of that class has" ~~(have~~). I tried mentioning this before and people "strongly disagreed with my opinion and posted their own" ~~(shouted "No skill bonus choices, because that would force me to specialize and I want to do anything I want")~~ because "in my opinion" giving a choice in how you use a skill instead of just mindlessly swinging a mace the same way at 1-100 really is really unique "seems strange and unentertaining". "I have formulated an opion that perhaps" ~~(I guess they~~) "these people with a differing opinion" are "so steadfast in their own ideas and ideals" ~~(so afraid~~) that they might actually enjoy (a) skill"s" "the way they are" and "would possibly" ~~(freak out that they may clear the game without maxing out their characters~~) "Not enjoy the same things or style of play as I do". I "am not syaing we should" ~~(do not say to~~) limit skill growth... but seriously... there is no reason NOT to work on all skills in a TES game. If TES 5 is like 4 with such limited gameplay.... ya I wont bother because I can not role-play my "own ideas of" combat "with the current system".

There I made your post non-insulting and fixed how you were stating your opinions as facts ^.^
Please Disregaurd this post it was unecessary and out of character.