First off i'm a real life Soldier, and what does that matter? It will make sense later on, for now i have to "thank" gamesas for destroying the only shinning beacon that was for me, my pride and joy that was the Capital Wasteland Brotherhood of Steel under Elder Lyons to make it into the frigging US Armed Forces! If i wanted to see reality i turn on a frigging television or go to work, i play games to feel good about something, to try and do good at least in a game since reality my efforts are pretty much mute. Playing games are my escape from reality, my form of maintaining my sanity and it was since i was 12, (I'm 36 now) a huge fan of the Fallout Universe.

Turning the CapBOS under that little twerp of a dictator Roger Maxson into the current US military running around with VTOL'S shooting everything that is not "pure" and "good" and "decent" reminds me VERY WELL why i joined the Military, to stop people like that but then the reality hits idealistic young men like myself as a truck. And what do you do gamesas? You turn my beacon of hope into the frigging ENCLAVE! What is wrong with you people??? If you have writers block and cannot fathom a new villain AT LEAST don't turn, in the most amazingly idiotic way, a faction that ACTUALLY had some sort of decency into a bunch of aggressive militaristic morons! Lost Hill's is surrounded and about to be overrun by the NCR (and rightly so!!! bunch of racist dogmatic idiots!) and what do you do? Lets kill off of screen without any plausible explanation, Elder Lyons and EVEN WORSE, Sarah Lyons, who, wouldn't let her father work be twisted in this travesty that is Maxson's BOS. And what about Star Paladin Cross??? Was she killed as well of screen to create this monster??? Where are the officers that served under Lyons??? Where is the Lyons Pride???

I'm aghast and angry, i play games to feel good not to feel like a monster and doing the BOS plot line basically makes you into a mass murderer. No worse, a facist murderer and a killer! Killing the Railroad? REALLY??? With 10 charisma and i don't even HAVE the option to convince that little nazi of an officer Kell that they are freedom fighters that can be valuable allies and not the enemy??? Do you know how i felt when i had to kill off the entire Railroad Command staff??? I felt physically sick, i felt like a monster! "Why didn't you stop playing???" I don't know, we are drilled to follow orders and i did in game but i wish i didn't, i thought i could change something in the end but it just brought so many bad things back. I do what my girlfriend calls projection, i project my values, my honor and my sense of discipline into the characters i play, so i can AT LEAST have fun in a game making a difference, and here comes one of my most awaited games in years and i see the only good in the Wasteland being twisted into that monstrosity that made me want to throw my Commanding Officer of the nearest window in the Prydwen or bash Kell's skull in for giving an order to kill a group that he considered "an hindrance" who were nothing else but good decent human beings trying to make a difference, or that little criminal Teagan that his idea of getting supplies is to be a mafioso and extort supplies by force of arms! Where did these people came from??? Hell???

You know how many cretins like those i had to serve under? You have ANY idea in how you destroyed my joy seeing something i adored being ripped apart and turned into the Third Reich? You don't and probably don't care the money is in the bank and who cares about little ol' me, i'm just one (honest) fan that doesn't do personality cult among delusional millions who do.

I don't ask for much i never did i served not wanting rewards that's not what we Soldiers do but this, what you did was akin to destroying a little boy's dreams. This earth is already a piece of monstrosity that we see daily, and honest decent men like myself can do very little about, so when we get older we cling to what is good, and you just ripped it apart to create a TVTrope. Congratulations gamesas, you just showed at least to myself, that you are NOT the right custodians to this IP, Obsidian did it right with Fallout New Vegas, i didn't feel like a piece of [censored] by playing as the NCR and allying the Mojave chapter to a new age of cooperation, healing old wounds and brooking a cease fire against that monster that was Caesar's Legion, it felt GOOD to face a slaver, homicidal, and terrorist faction in battle like that and make them pay in blood. Playing as BOS in Fallout 4? I felt like the worse human being in the world, i stopped playing because of that, i just couldn't continue, and that ruined my enjoyment after killing decent human beings that their only sin was to try and make a better place to live on. If i wanted to play the US invading Army, i'll play COD or disconnect my PC and offer myself for a new tour of duty thank you very much. Been there, done that, felt like crap.

Games are supposed to be fun, this made me feel horrible. I would ask if you were happy with your conscience but i think "you" don't give a damn, you get to go home from 9 to 5 to your family and get a good night sleep.

So rant is over, life can go on, and i got that out of my chest which is the purpose of this anyway i'm not going to change anything this was mostly theraqeutic so that it doesn't stick in my mind and boils up as everything else, but there is consequences in the end, my wallet is gone to you, you lost a customer unless i see Obsidian in the next Fallout.

Have a nice day gamesas.

Then don't help the Brotherhood of Steel, join the Minutemen who go around helping settlers defend themselves from raiders. Or join the Railroad that to stop Synths being captured and exploited by the Institute.

The Brotherhood of Steel have always been bad people, Lyon's tried to change that in the Capital Wasteland and failed.

That's how the BoS always was. The CWBOS were the oddballs. You say you're a huge fan of the Fallout universe but you didn't know the BoS has always been a pure human entity? The Minutemen seem like a fine faction for your ideals, what's wrong with them? A lot of fans asked for the BoS to go back to their roots, Beth delivered.

Edit: also to your point about the Railroad. They have conflicting ideals with the Brotherhood that would lead to a battle anyway. Of course they want them gone.

They wanted all the factions to have a catch, seeing as nothing is perfect and everything is flawed. The Brotherhood of Steel will do good, but it comes at a cost. Same with the Intitute and The Railroad. It was always Maxson's destiny to be Elder, and Lyons died before he could teach him everything he needed. And then Sarah died, which probably hardened Maxson alot. Its understandable that he became what he now is. Personally i think this was very well written, and it made sense to the setting. It was horrible to watch the bigotry speeches he made, but that is his belief. Whether you agree with it or not.

its hinted at a group leaving the Brotherhood of Steel with Maxson taking over. I could see Star Paladin Cross beeing in that group, and maybe the Lone Wanderer. Could be a new Brotherhood of Steel Civil War coming, maybe that is why Maxson feels the need to take Boston, to grow his army and assert dominance.

To be honest, most people complain about "new BoS" hating Synths and Ghouls. But the thing is, Lyons hated the Ghouls too. It is highly doubtful that Lyons would be that much more tolerant if he were here.

Thus, Lyons did not try to change anything, from this perspective at least. FO3 just showed them in good light most of the time, but careful looking showed that BoS was still BoS.

I understand your frustration I do and think that your reaction is EXACTLY what they going for. It's like returning home to those who loved the BoS of Fallout 3 and finding out your home has been turned into Nazi Germany.

It's disturbing, wrong, and FRIGHTENING. Like, "This is NOT what I fought and bled for."

It makes Elder Lyon's story better, IMHO, as it turns him and his daughter into tragic figures like Obi-Wan Kenobi from the original trilogy (not the Prequels).

Which, I suppose, makes Elder Maxson Darth Vader.

A pupil of his until he turned to evil.

Edit:

Oh and thank you for your service, traumatizing as it may be, your courage and idealism are inspirations. I'm sorry it had to be so cruelly attacked.

What the thread starter should think about is how it made him react. He got mad. When a game makes you react, well then its good writing. Bethesda did good writing! WUHU!

To be fair, while good writing, it's not good to kick your fans in the nuts necessarilly either.

The Red Wedding was good.

Some of the acts in Game of Thrones? Not so much.

Sometimes its better to provoke for a reaction though, but i see your point.

I'm sorry it ruined your enjoyment of the game, but to be honest, there was literally nothing stopping you from getting off the Prydwen the minute you finished listening to Elder Maxson's speech, and joining the minutemen or the Railroad. Maxson was pretty clear what the Brotherhood's principles and plans were under his command.

Personally, I couldn't stand the Lyons and was pretty happy with how things turned out in Fallout 4. I enjoyed following Maxson's orders, despite also feeling some remorse over the destruction of the Railroad. I think that was good writing by Bethesda.

I followed the BoS questline aswell, and it had some dark moments which made me question my orders. Which is what a game should do, make you think about your choices.

That they did. I was blown away by the BOS quest line. Am now on another character doing the Rail Road quest line. It's nice to see that it's so much different. While the BOS is all heavy armor and big guns, the Rail Road is very cloak and dagger.

Exactly. I personally enjoy being forced to make tough decisions and facing their consequences in games, but if someone wants to play the perfect hero instead the Minutemen are pretty close, so it's not like the game is forcing the player to be morally gray.

I understand the OP felt 'betrayed' by the brotherhood as a faction, in a sense? I get it, I think, I get emotionally involved in games too. And I appreciate it when writers manage to evoke strong feelings in me. Though in this case, unlike the OP, I feel satisfaction rather than anger.

Here is also something i will give a plus for. The first time i was on the Prydwen, i was just running around exploring, thinking about how i would take this ship down. And then i came across a chalk drawing on the floor and some toys. I hadn't seen any of the squires yet, and well i just had this moment "Children aboard" and that changed my perspective. Great writing and envoirmental storytellling. Well i will stop hijacking this thread just to fawn over the writing.

Dude you should have turned on your heel and joined up with the Minutemen- we fight for the common man! Plus if you put work into your settlements you can turn them into NCR-esque behemoth with hundreds of members and artillery everywhere.

Yet you can persuade Kells to not kill Virgil, and you can persuade Maxson to let Danse live. It seems Bethesda picked-and-chose what quests can be persuaded around and which couldn't :/

OP, think of it like this: Just because Maxon is a raging bloodknight bigot doesn't mean everyone in the CapBOS are. Won't spoil too much, but one of the soldiers there gets very defensive about Danse when...he gets into big trouble with Maxon and the latter gives you a "special assignment". His argument about keeping technology from those who will misuse it is sound, it's just the way he plans to carry it out, his genocidal schemes that are messed up. And considering he was once the nice little boy from the Citadel in Fallout 3, it makes it all the more tragic that this is how he eventually ends up becoming. It leaves you wondering just what the hell happened to that boy to turn him into a monster. I mean, you don't just wake up and go, "I want to commit genocide for the lulz". He's broken. He probably came to this conclusion after ten years of suffering and ruin. Ten years, which included the deaths of Elder Lyons and his daughter, Sarah. The latter possibly being the closest thing he had to a mother.

He's a psychologically broken man doing what he thinks is right. Is it morally right? No, but to him it makes all the logical sense in the world. That's why he's so compelling to me. To think he, once an innocent boy apprenticed to the Lyons, would become this. Tragic.

To be fair, Charisma checks are based around the idea someone is open to SOME form of persuasion.

It doesn't seem they can actually change someone dead set on a course of action or fundamental beliefs.

You want to tell that Legate Lanius for example is more open to persuasion than Arthur Maxon? Hell, both Presidents of the Enclave were more reasonable than him it seems.

I, for one, think you're grossly exaggerating here... Maxson is hardly a monster. He genuinely wants to take over the Commonwealth in order to both gain more power for the Brotherhood and make the East Coast a better place for wastelanders. Hence the 'eliminate synths, ghouls and supermutants' stance, and all of those are a threat to settlers.

Honestly? In My opinion He is worse than Autumn's Enclave. They have the same methods and end goal. But Autumn wanted restoration of Pre-War Amercia, Maxon and the Brotherhood by extend, want to rule the wasteland, taking from westlanders any piece of advanced technology effectively making a new medieval age.

You say that as if it was a bad thing...

What I mean is, if the Brotherhood is taking care of the threats like mutated creatures and raiders (and they are), what purpose does advanced technology serve in the hands of the masses, other than be a hazard? The BoS will put it to good use making their territory secure.

Well the issue is their ideology, either You fit in their narrow minded way or You end as a recluse/exile/corpse. After all my ventures with BoS, starting from Fallout 2, I wholehearthedly agree with Robert House, they're ridiculous.

And no, they don't care about the people, Dense said that more or less himself.

You can persuade Legate Lanius to leave the Battle of Hoover Dam.

You can't persuade him to, say, abandon the Legion and its murder-hoboery across the Wasteland to take up knitting.

I can and did persuade Arthur Maxson to spare Paladin Danse's life.

However, I couldn't persuade him Synths were more than monsters even when it was revealed Danse was Arthur's best (and only) friend.

The Fallout 3 BoS was an interesting change from the Fallout 1 and 2 BoS. I decided I had to destroy the Fallout 4 BoS because they had reverted to the behavior that caused their decline in the first place. Fallout New Vegas also showed the decline of the BoS. I would definitely like a mod that has a civil war within the BoS, other major faction like the Institute as well but but for this topic I will stick with the BoS. It would be interesting if the Institute if had been making synth replicas of major faction Leaders. The Lyons could be brought back that way or Maxson was unknowingly a synth replica who had had a major psychological break with what he really was. Remnants of the Enclave could have reverse engineered Institute technology to some extant.

I don't like when a faction or character shows a development that is reversed because the story writers need to uses them how they used to use them again. The BoS reverted to the status quo and showed little benefit as an organization other than fighting supermutants. I chose the institute because, I know there is not the option to do this because their potential was not developed, as the new leader of the organization I could actually use that advanced technology to help people rather than horde it because of some fear that it is dangerous. In my imaginary Fallout 4 I have given each settlement and patrol of Minutemen an emergency beacon to call down synths. The BoS did not show any potential in their organization to do something similar. They would attack raider and mutant strongholds but they did nothing to help the people in a direct manner. The BoS must be able to hear Minuteman radio but they do not respond. Who are you going to call when a supermutant horde is advancing on your settlement? Minuteman Prime, refurbished and upgraded by the institute. If it starts to exhibit free thinking and self determination don't worry we just need to patch its os. Don't criticize the hat, we don't know how it keeps making new ones.