Having tried both of these new weapons, I couldn't help, but notice they weren't exactly better than the regular weapons they were based upon.


For the Smitty Special, the full auto mode wasn't worth the 30+ damage drop from a regular plasma caster to consider worth replacing. The Plasma Caster with the upgrade semi-auto greatly boosts it's DPS to the point where it might as well be considered full-auto. Comparing the two stats, you can see you're giving up a major amount of damage, for slightly better firing speed. I don't see the role this weapon was meant to take, in my opinion the Plasma Caster was a high powered medium range weapon. The Smitty acts like a Laser RCW, rather than being high powered plasma rifle with the amount of shots it takes to take down enemies.

Smitty 37/268 DPS
Plasma Caster+ 70/304 DPS

The Sprtel-Wood 9700 is a pale comparison to the CZ57 Avenger it was trying to emulate. The Avenger have more damage per shot and higher DPS overall than the regular minigun giving up ammo per clip as a trade off. The Sprtel on the other hand has more damage per shot, but gives up DPS on top of less ammo per clip compared to the regular Laser Gatling. Even though it is accurate, the Gatling Laser will chew through enemies much quicker which is the weapons intended purpose because of the higher DPS.

Sprtel 20/ 397 DPS
Gatling Laser+ 16/ 482

Whats funny is that the GRA versions of Energy Weapons are superior to their regular versions in every way, yet with these special named versions it's not the case. What is the reason for these? Why not just make GRA Plasma Caster and GRA Gatling Laser, because as it stands I'm having a hard time choosing the new weapons over the old ones. Feel free to discuss.

---------
On a side note, the optimized energy ammo was a severe letdown. Other the minor damage boost compared to overcharged rounds, only hardcoe characters would find any use for the ammo. You could of did something much more creative like you've done for guns, but instead energy weapon users got the short end of the stick with slightly better overcharged rounds.

If there is one thing that is the bane of all low DAM, high DPS rapid fire weapons throughout the game (such as the gatling lasers), it's heavily armored opponents and the way DT works. That's why the Sprtel-Wood 9700 still appeals to me. That 4 more damage per shot can still make quite a difference versus a heavily armored opponent when we're talking about a weapon with a high rate of fire.

That, plus factor in a perk that adds a flat +5 damage to all beam weapons.
And max charge ammo's percentage bonus works better with a bigger base number.
Same with the Laser Commander perk.

Granted, in terms of raw numbers the regular gatling laser might still come out on top in terms of DPS. But there comes a point where 500+ DPS doesn't matter because there aren't that many creatures in the game with over 500 health - so everything else you point it at gets toasted in under a second. So I start to take in other considerations like "what will happen if I run into an opponent with 23DT armor and 400+ HP?" Like high level Legion Assassins, for instance.

Well Obsidian noted that and gave 5mm rounds very high penetration. The 5mm AP rounds completely ignore the DT on almost every enemy, so what you get is 400 DPS actually doing 400 Damage per second.

As always, energy weapons get ignored and Gatling laser/ Sprtel 7000 can't penetrate anything. I fail to see why the same wasnt done for rapid fire energy weapons. The cheapass assalt carbine(non-GRA version, GRA version is even better) loaded with AP rounds does way more damage then the super expensive Sprtel-7000 due to the simple reason that it cant penetrate anything.

ECP should have -10 DT power, and Max Charged ECP should have -20 or -25 DT penetration.

I just finished doing some quick back-of-an-envelope DPS calculations, pitting a Sprtel-Wood 9700 vs. a Gatling Laser with all the mods. Both were calculated with all the relevant perks.

Then I calculated the DPS they both would do versus an unarmored opponent, and an opponent with 25DT armor (the highest I'm aware of in the game).

And... the Gatling Laser still came out on top in all instances. Huh. That is weird. Forget everything I said.

Only advantage the Sprtel-Wood has is that its spread it .5 while the Gatling Laser is .6 - in other words, hardly much different at all.

Thanks but I wasn't comparing the Sprtel Wood to the Avenger.

The numbers I came up with of a fully decked out Gatling Laser with all the perks versus an opponent with 25AP came out to 343DPS. Most enemies are going to be dead in just over a second, as far as I know. Even with the difficulty cranked up, it will take about 2 seconds to toast most enemies. I'm too lazy to compare this to an Avenger with AP ammo but I would imagine most enemies die in a similarly short amount of time.

No, try fighting Giant radscorpians at hardest difficulty. Avenger will by-pass their shield completely, killing them in a second or 2. G.laser / sprtel would waste alot of ammo, and take much longer.

You are right about G.laser being better than Sprtel, besides it will weigh alot less.

Guess I'm not that lazy after all: CZ57 Avenger loaded with AP ammo versus an bad guy with 25DT armor = 370DPS. Granted, higher than the Gatling Laser but when we're talking about this much damage there isn't much of a difference.

In your particular instance of fighting Giant Radscorpions, the Gatling Laser would actually have higher DPS versus them because Giant Radscorpions only have a DT of 18. 553DPS, in fact. The Avenger would still do 370 DPS because the armor piercing effect of the ammo doesn't actually add any additional damage - it only ignores a certain amount of DT.

I think you misunderstood, Yes it will have a higher DPS, but when the Giant Radscorpions have a DT of 18 , and Gatling laser does a damage of 13 per shot... it really doesnt do anything.

I think you misunderstood. I'm not using the "base stats" of a Gatling Laser as I thought all my posts would have indicated so far. I'm calculating its boosted stats based on taking Laser Commander, using Max Charge ammo, and obtaining the perk that adds a flat +5 damage to beam weapons.

Why the heck did you compare the regular-ammo stats of a Gatling Laser versus 18DT but just prior to that, compare AP ammo for the Avenger versus the same DT?

I don't like math, so I use melee weapons and unarmed.

Maybe because not everyone uses ED-E as companion (your +5 beam damage) and max charged ammo that still has less penetration and ruins your weapon within 2 fights. Your comparison is completely resting on the +5 Beam damage perk for which you need to have ED-E.

Fair comparison is of Base stats only with the best ammunition available to both, AP rounds for Avenger and Max charged for Sprtel.

Nah, I think it's fair to compare the "best stats" a Gatling Laser can have versus the "best stats" an Avenger can have. Since the crux of this argument is whether or not Energy Weapons are underpowered, it only makes sense to me to find out if that's genuinely true in ALL cases. These are both "end game" weapons and once you get them, I doubt you're going to be wielding much else. Therefor, I would personally be building my character in such a way as to get the best use out of his weapon of choice. This includes bringing along more advantagous companions (and seriously, there aren't that many people who favor Rex over ED-E).

Using the numbers provided by the Vault Wiki and factoring in Max Charge ammo, you have about 3050 shots total before your weapon breaks. I don't know how bad of a shot you are, but I can assure you I can make 3050 shots last me more than 2 fights. Even when we consider a rate of fire of 30 shots a second. And besides, that's what weapon repair kits and Raul is for.

As far as I know the highest DT of any enemy in the game (Joshua Graham not withstanding) is 36, possesed by Orion Moreno or any of the other Enclave in full power armor.

Oh, right. I forgot about him. Probably because I usually talk him out of fighting. Is there anybody else besides him and the Remnants with a DT over 25?

I'm glad my suspicions played out that the Sprtel is indeed weaker, despite what was lead to be believed as an Energy Weapon version of the Avenger. As mentioned before is anyone besides hardcoe characters using optimized energy ammo? .5 more damage and weight is the difference between that and overcharged ammo. I was hoping since we're paying for this content pack all about weapons, we'd get stronger rounds, or at the least something more creative than reduced inventory weight. Also does anyone have any thoughts about what I wrote about the Smitty Special, the weapon just feels underwhelming, I have plenty of guns that shoot faster, not many that do high damage per shot and good rate of fire, was hoping for a superior Plasma Caster.

Any of the BoS wearing full T-51B armor have a DT of 31, and Veteran Rangers have a DT of 24, but also have a DR of 30%

More people I failed to consider because I usually stay on their good side.

I got 25DT because that's the armor of the whacky Mr. Gutsys that attack you no matter what you do.

Well, I play on hardcoe mode and learned how the Smitty Special with optimized MF cells are not enough for deathclaws. I tested in Quarry Junction and the regular Plasma Caster is much better, specially because you will need the extra damage.
Usually when playing energy weapons builds I simply enter the Quarry walking with a Plasma Caster equipped with OC cells and as soon as the Detahclaws start to run towards me I start putting them down.
You can make it even faster with MC cells, but you need to carry A TON of WRKs with you, the caster don't last nothing, usually falling behind the 75% line after 22 shots.
But those 22 shots kill A LOT of deathclaws.

Then I came to the Quarry all braggin about how good and godly I'm with the Smitty and the OC optimized cells and got my a** kicked and kicked hard, because I losted ED-E in the process (and I have a personal police that if I losted a companion because I screwed up, they stay dead, I don't reload a save).
I know, I know, it was my mistake and serves me right for trying to be a Ricky, but I've never had problems before with the Plasma Caster + OC cells, even after the 1.3 patch that boosted the deathclaws stats and make the Mother, Alpha and Legendary move 2x faster.
Also, when equipped with a Caster I hardly have trouble with companions either and I know people are afraid to go into the Quarry with them.

But these are heavy weapons designed for frontal assaults, not sniping from distance, so I was expecting they pack a lot of punch.
In the end I finished the deathclaws with the GRA Tri-beam Laser modded and equipped with optimized OC cells, this weapon is simply amazing, much better than the regular version (but eats ammo like no tomorrow).
Stay with the regular Caster and Gatling, the boost in weapon HP will not make up for the lack of damage these weapons have.

Just save 10,000 caps and buy the hyperbreeder Alpha.

I like the Green Gat laser. U Mad?

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Sprtel-Wood_9700_(GRA) http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Smitty_Special_(GRA)

To you they are.

Yeah. I'm not sure where the OP's getting his stats, but they aren't like that in my game.

In my game the SS out DPS' the plasma caster even with the HS electrode, and it fires so fast the deathclaws just melt.

The SW9700 also has a higher DPS than the modded Gatlas in my game, plus it gets more benefit from special ammo types.

And the optimized ammo has become my go to ammo, what with being better than overcharge in literally every way, and having almost as much damage boost as max charge (even if it only ignores half the DT.)

Energy weapons just svck overall.

When you have an energy weapon with 40 health which also cannot be repaired by any other weapon even with jury rigging (tesla cannon beaton) and also does a critical damage of half the normal damage, you should go for guns skill instead.

Two great things GRA did was the optimised ammo for EWs and Health buff for tri-beam laser, though multiplas is still at the pathetic and ridiculous 50. You are left with no option but to get dozens of WRKs from Bunker.

Smitty's Special is a good weapon IMO, it does good damage and has good rate of fire and just-ok health.

Sprtel is just useless.

Critical hits from the Sprtel are insane with the right build.

I disagree. The higher damage vis a vis gatlas means it's better against a wider range of opponents. The normal gatlas is pretty much a cazador control weapon that fails when you fight anything with decent armor. The SW9700 will tear right through anything but power armor with the right ammo. Robots? Legion centurions? NCR ranger vets? While your gatlas would be plinking away uselessly against their 20+ DT, the Spertel-Wood 9700 will exceed the DT and deal respectable damage versus them if you've got anything above normal ammo.

It also requires a STR of 6 instead of 8 like the normal gatlas, making it useful for a wider variety of courier builds.

Besides, I'm in love with the green beams and the sound it makes when shooting.