Stealth States in Skyrim

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:46 pm

I like the idea of not knowing when you are detected, but agree that this might be tricky to implement. Let me have a stab at an idea for how to make it work:


OK, you got me to think about the problem, so how about another solution.

If while sneaking, you look around and the opponents that might detect you pass through your line of sight, the icon would show up to define if you can be seen or not, but after a short while it would gradually fade into the general icon that would show if you are sneaking or not.

The you have to look around another time toward the opponents, so that the indicator icon appears again.

The fading time of the detection indicator can depend on your sneak/perception skills.
User avatar
carly mcdonough
 
Posts: 3402
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:23 am

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:29 pm

OK, you got me to think about the problem, so how about another solution.

If while sneaking, you look around and the opponents that might detect you pass through your line of sight, the icon would show up to define if you can be seen or not, but after a short while it would gradually fade into the general icon that would show if you are sneaking or not.

The you have to look around another time toward the opponents, so that the indicator icon appears again.

The fading time of the detection indicator can depend on your sneak/perception skills.


Yeah, looking at NPCs should make a difference to being able to know whether you are detected or not. But, I think, only if there's an unimpeded line of sight - if there's a wall in the way, then it defeats the purpose to have to see the NPC to know whether she's detecting you sneaking around ;)
User avatar
CHARLODDE
 
Posts: 3408
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:33 pm

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:32 pm

My preference is for passive indicators of your stealth state ie. NPC behaviour although since first-person is supposedly HUD-free and I play exclusively in that mode, it's probably a mute point.

-If NPC's are in idle animations or conversing obviously you are not seen.

-If they suddenly stop and peer into the dark or make some comment then they are suspicious.

-If they run towards you, the game is up (like the whiteboard said: 'Duh')

Essentially Oblivion with much better AI.
User avatar
OTTO
 
Posts: 3367
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 6:22 pm

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:00 pm

Oblivion already had the "I think I saw something!" remark. So why not use that? When you hear someone say "Someone there?" you'll know you alerted him. No need for icons that way,


TBH the icons helping you don't bother me.
User avatar
Amy Siebenhaar
 
Posts: 3426
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:51 am

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:25 pm

Not really on the topic but thought I'd ask in a "stealth" thread.

Anyone know if the color of your armor gives you an advantage while sneaking? I mean... if you wear shiny armor or black leather armor with a black hood or something. If the dark leather gives more "camoflauge" or how to say it when you are in the darkness. While the shiny chainmail armor might give your position away quite easily?
User avatar
HARDHEAD
 
Posts: 3499
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:49 am

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:33 pm

Not really on the topic but thought I'd ask in a "stealth" thread.

Anyone know if the color of your armor gives you an advantage while sneaking? I mean... if you wear shiny armor or black leather armor with a black hood or something. If the dark leather gives more "camoflauge" or how to say it when you are in the darkness. While the shiny chainmail armor might give your position away quite easily?

It was not in the previous games, but I hope it would be in Skyrim, as it adds a lot to the immersion factor, in fact I wish a system like this would be implemented:

All these problems could be solved, if the chameleon effect was not used by percentage, and invisibility was not like 100% chameleon, until an action, but something like this:

Spoiler
The chameleon could be like camouflage power, and invisibility could be like a higher camouflage power, until an action, but those powers could be countered by sight power and keenness of the opposition.

Those power could be added to sneak power, the coloring of worn gear, and environmental effects like ambient light and fog, and so on...

Something like this:

Sneaker:
Sneak skill + Camouflage spells + Worn gear + Environmental effects + Action

Opposition:
Keenness + Blindness or Detect spells + Alarm state + Line of Sight

Environmental effect is the ambient light of the point where the stalker resides, and the fog effect and the like.

The Alarm state can be like this:

  • Unconscious: Can not detect anything. :sleep2:
  • Distracted: Attention caught by something else. :violin:
  • Unaware: Idle, whistling, mumbling and the like... :whistling:
  • Alarm level 1: Heard a sound, and looks toward the direction. :shifty:
  • Alarm level 2: Saw a something and comes looking for it. :stare:
  • Alarm level 3: Find something bad like a corpse and start actively searching. :ooo:
  • Alarm level 4: Found the target but lost it and looking for it. :flame:
  • Alarm level 5: Actively pursuing/atacking the target. :gun:
  • Alarm level ?: Fleeing from the target. :bolt:

And each alarm state affects the sight power or keenness of the pursuer, so at first it would be easier to avoid them, but if you knock something down and make a noise, it would become harder to avoid them.

This way, you could cast a chameleon spell and pass the regular foes, but those higher level guards and bosses, should be harder to avoid, because they had keener senses, and thus obtaining a high level item, at high level area, that would have higher level foes, would require better spells and more advanced sneak skills, and that would mean higher level player, which would prevent the problem that was my concern.

I.e. using an easy to gain invisibility spell and getting higher level items in higher level areas easily.


Edit:

Yeah, looking at NPCs should make a difference to being able to know whether you are detected or not. But, I think, only if there's an unimpeded line of sight - if there's a wall in the way, then it defeats the purpose to have to see the NPC to know whether she's detecting you sneaking around ;)

Yes, that is what I meant.

And of course you can sometimes sit facing toward a direction that could keep all the nearby opponents in the line of sight, and have the luxury of a constant detection condition indicator available.
User avatar
darnell waddington
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:43 pm

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:15 pm

i can't remember but did fallout have icons as well as text - like on the drawing board? either way both are better than oblivion's setup..imo.


Fallout 3 had the words appear on the bottom of the screen, in green if you were 'Undetected', red when urging 'Caution', and flashing red when in 'Danger'. If 'Detected' the word would stay green, as you can only enter the 'Detected' state when spotted by friendly or neutral characters/creatures.
User avatar
Gill Mackin
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:58 pm

Post » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:58 am

Not knowing adds an element of suspense, simple as that. More suspense = heightened intensity when playing a stealth character. Works for me.
User avatar
Noely Ulloa
 
Posts: 3596
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:33 am

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:52 pm

If you look at http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/9549/22583597.png video capture, you can find out some disturbing facts.

There are only three states of stealth, one of which have two sides.

  • Detected.
  • Undetected.
  • Caution.
  • Danger.

But basically Danger mode and Detected mode are the same, the difference is who has detected us: An enemy or otherwise?

In the capture screen, you can see the icons that they have designed for the stealth states, but decided that they were wrong, so they crossed them off and in a box below the cross designed three new icons that showed a covered sun, a half covered one and a shiny exposed sun, with a line that suggests: (? Separate "I'm sneaky" from "I'm detected").

Then they saw that with three icons, you can not find out if an enemy has detected you and you are in danger, or you are detected by a non-enemy pawn.

And they suggested: (? "How to tell difference between DETECTED | DANGER?"), and then they decided that: (THE people try to kill you.).

So we can not tell from the icons if we are really in danger, but maybe from the change of the music?

I say that it adds to the immersion, if we can only know that we are detected and I do not worry about that, it really bothers me that we have only three states of alarm in monsters, "Undetected, Caution, and Detected", and I hoped there would be more alarm states, like this:

  • Unconscious: Can not detect anything. :sleep2:
  • Distracted: Attention caught by something else. :violin:
  • Unaware: Idle, whistling, mumbling and the like... :whistling:
  • Alarm level 1: Heard a sound, and looks toward the direction. :shifty:
  • Alarm level 2: Saw a something and comes looking for it. :stare:
  • Alarm level 3: Find something bad like a corpse and start actively searching. :ooo:
  • Alarm level 4: Found the target but lost it and looking for it. :flame:
  • Alarm level 5: Actively pursuing/attacking the target. :gun:
  • Alarm level ?: Fleeing from the target. :bolt:


What do you think?


EDIT: I realize just repeated what you said... So yep, good idea.
User avatar
Spooky Angel
 
Posts: 3500
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:41 pm

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:25 pm

YES (they could add little branches that crack like in EVERY movie
User avatar
Kate Norris
 
Posts: 3373
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:12 pm

Post » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:47 am

Someone mentioned Thief earlier, and as a Thief fan myself, I have to say that that game ruined me for Morrowind - I couldn't get into that game because the stealth system was too simplified. (I've since played it, but more as a fighter character.)

Anyway, I'd love to see a more elegant stealth notification for the player. The "dim eye/bright eye" thing seems silly, as does Fallout's "caution/danger" messages. Thief's "light gem" system is more immersive: at the bottom of the screen, you had a little rectangular thing which got bright if you were in bright light, darker if you were in shadows. It had nothing to do with psychically telling you who saw you - it simply told you how visible you *could* be if someone happened to wander by.

Of course, the difference is that Thief wasn't really an RPG; your success at sneaking was based entirely on your skill as a player, not your character's skills. Morrowind was mostly, as I understand, skill-based - if your skill was high enough, you could get away with ridiculous sneaking. Oblivion seems like more of a blend of the 2 - you need a high skill, but your ability as a player also is taken into account: stay in the shadows, move behind AI backs.

Probably my 2 biggest problems with stealth in Oblivion are:

1) the "psychic eye" detection notification
2) the way it's practically impossible to "lose" AI: once they've seen you, they know where you are forever; there's no way to re-hide, slip around a corner & lose them in the shadows.

If Skyrim could tweak these 2 things, I'd be a lot happier about playing a thiefy character.
User avatar
Manny(BAKE)
 
Posts: 3407
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:14 am

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:48 pm

Someone mentioned Thief earlier, and as a Thief fan myself, I have to say that that game ruined me for Morrowind - I couldn't get into that game because the stealth system was too simplified. (I've since played it, but more as a fighter character.)

Anyway, I'd love to see a more elegant stealth notification for the player. The "dim eye/bright eye" thing seems silly, as does Fallout's "caution/danger" messages. Thief's "light gem" system is more immersive: at the bottom of the screen, you had a little rectangular thing which got bright if you were in bright light, darker if you were in shadows. It had nothing to do with psychically telling you who saw you - it simply told you how visible you *could* be if someone happened to wander by.

Of course, the difference is that Thief wasn't really an RPG; your success at sneaking was based entirely on your skill as a player, not your character's skills. Morrowind was mostly, as I understand, skill-based - if your skill was high enough, you could get away with ridiculous sneaking. Oblivion seems like more of a blend of the 2 - you need a high skill, but your ability as a player also is taken into account: stay in the shadows, move behind AI backs.

Probably my 2 biggest problems with stealth in Oblivion are:

1) the "psychic eye" detection notification
2) the way it's practically impossible to "lose" AI: once they've seen you, they know where you are forever; there's no way to re-hide, slip around a corner & lose them in the shadows.

If Skyrim could tweak these 2 things, I'd be a lot happier about playing a thiefy character.

Yes Thief had great stealth mechanism, as it was specially designed for the task, and that lighted gem was really good for a game that the Stealth skill level did not affect the result.

The "psychic eye" detection notification can have a meaningful explanation if we add my solution that we need to look toward the foes at internals to decide if they can see us.

The second problem has definitely to be addressed, as it would ruin a true thief's life, or turn him to a lowly murderer.
User avatar
Sharra Llenos
 
Posts: 3399
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:09 pm

Post » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:10 am

Fallout 3 had the words appear on the bottom of the screen, in green if you were 'Undetected', red when urging 'Caution', and flashing red when in 'Danger'. If 'Detected' the word would stay green, as you can only enter the 'Detected' state when spotted by friendly or neutral characters/creatures.

That sounds like what was listed on the whiteboard in the Skyrim behind the scenes GI video. Sounds good in that in might not offer certainty that you're detected to make it more realistic, while providing a guide.
User avatar
chirsty aggas
 
Posts: 3396
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:23 am

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:29 pm

seems pretty solid
User avatar
Cash n Class
 
Posts: 3430
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:01 am

Post » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:29 am

That sounds like what was listed on the whiteboard in the Skyrim behind the scenes GI video. Sounds good in that in might not offer certainty that you're detected to make it more realistic, while providing a guide.

So basically we will have Fallout 3 level of stealth?

I hope we will have a better system.
User avatar
helliehexx
 
Posts: 3477
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:45 pm

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:03 pm

Or since it is all concept as Todd pointed out maybe they didn't care? Everything we saw on that board was revealed in the GI cover story for the most part. As for stealth most people expected that and as you can see just people seeing those three states doesn't really give us any real information on how complex it will be. :shrug:


Agree :ninja:
User avatar
Amiee Kent
 
Posts: 3447
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:25 pm

Post » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:37 am

  • Unconscious: Can not detect anything. :sleep2:
  • Distracted: Attention caught by something else. :violin:
  • Unaware: Idle, whistling, mumbling and the like... :whistling:
  • Alarm level 1: Heard a sound, and looks toward the direction. :shifty:
  • Alarm level 2: Saw a something and comes looking for it. :stare:
  • Alarm level 3: Find something bad like a corpse and start actively searching. :ooo:
  • Alarm level 4: Found the target but lost it and looking for it. :flame:
  • Alarm level 5: Actively pursuing/attacking the target. :gun:
  • Alarm level ?: Fleeing from the target. :bolt:


THIS and they SHOULD have ? and ! like in the metal gear series.
User avatar
Phoenix Draven
 
Posts: 3443
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:50 am

Post » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:00 am

THIS and they SHOULD have ? and ! like in the metal gear series.

I have not seen that game.

What is the use of those signs?
User avatar
Katharine Newton
 
Posts: 3318
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:33 pm

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:23 pm

You guys do see that the whole thing is crossed out with a big "WRONG" written next to it, right?
User avatar
Beth Belcher
 
Posts: 3393
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:39 pm

Post » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:30 am

anybody else see the giant X through the OPs point? and the words WRONG printed next to it?
User avatar
Frank Firefly
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:34 am

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:15 pm

I have not seen that game.

What is the use of those signs?

In the game when someone notices something different (foot prints,a noise like knocking,etc.) a ? sign appears on the top of their heads for 2 seconds. When you get spotted ! appears on top of their heads for 2 seconds.
User avatar
Mylizards Dot com
 
Posts: 3379
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 1:59 pm

Post » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:04 am

You guys do see that the whole thing is crossed out with a big "WRONG" written next to it, right?

anybody else see the giant X through the OPs point? and the words WRONG printed next to it?

If you look at http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/9549/22583597.png video capture, you can find out some disturbing facts.

In the capture screen, you can see the icons that they have designed for the stealth states, but decided that they were wrong, so they crossed them off and in a box below the cross designed three new icons that showed a covered sun, a half covered one and a shiny exposed sun[/u], with a line that suggests: (? Separate "I'm sneaky" from "I'm detected").

Then they saw that with three icons, you can not find out if an enemy has detected you and you are in danger, or you are detected by a non-enemy pawn.

And they suggested: (? "How to tell difference between DETECTED | DANGER?"), and then they decided that: (THE people try to kill you.).

:frog:

Edit:
In the game when someone notices something different (foot prints,a noise like knocking,etc.) a ? sign appears on the top of their heads for 2 seconds. When you get spotted ! appears on top of their heads for 2 seconds.

Thanks bud.
User avatar
Claire Mclaughlin
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:55 am

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:06 pm

Detected is for friendly npc's who wont kill you on sight, while Danger is for enemies who've spotted you.
User avatar
Fam Mughal
 
Posts: 3468
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 3:18 am

Post » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:49 pm

I have faith in their ability to do it correctly. As long as they get the AI right, their system on the board works. I just hope when an enemy is fleeing it doesn't say "Danger" It should go to detected or something non threatening. I always thought it was wierd when an enemy was running away crying like a baby because I shot him in the foot and the game was telling me I was in "danger" haha. But seriously I hope stealth is overhauled as far as the ai goes. I don't even require an icon telling me that I've been detected or in danger, makes stealing and stealth more exciting and 10x as dangerous.

So hopefully the AI will be good. Ie, If the enemy sees a corpse, sees the player's shadow, hears the player make a noise, etc and the enemy would either hunt the player or run away in fear instead of automatically charge the player. This should also be a similar aspect for nonviolent npcs. If you break into their house and you throw an apple at the wall they will hear it and grab a torch to see in the shadows. Or maybe they spot you, perhaps they boldly walk up to you sword in hand and tell you to leave or they run in fear and go tell a guard to have the guard investigate.

Just ramblings from me on what I wouldn't mind seeing in the game. I have faith in them to make an exciting game either way.
User avatar
D LOpez
 
Posts: 3434
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:30 pm

Previous

Return to V - Skyrim