Bethesda, when will you guys improve the stealth system in your games? These issues have existed since Morrowind and it's getting really old. but wohoo, Magic Vision FTW, ey Bethesda?!!

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Stealing:

If you steal an item, if you get discovered you get confronted as usual. If you don't get discovered, there should be an area of suspicion created in the spot where you performed the theft. That area will persist for some time, and during that time the item (which owns the area of suspicion) cannot be sold. This should be a simple Navmesh algorithm, and at no point did the item ever get a permanent "stolen" tag.

Pickpocketing should work in a similar way. If you fail at pickpocketing, an area of supsicion will appear at that location. You cannot pickpocket anyone within that area, but people will no longer attack you if you fail to pickpocket them, either. People don't generally know that you tried to pickpocket them, they just get suspicious because they discovered that you're close to them and touching them. So you can't pickpocket them again until their paranoia subcedes.

Alternately, an area of suspicion could also, potentially, reduce people's disposition towards you (although disposition doesn't even seem to exist in Fallout 4, so meh).


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Sneaking:


Please STOP making Sneaking a mode that you enter. It's idiotic. No other games are like this. There's simply a "likeliness / threshold of getitng spotted" based on how much sound you make, how much lighting you're standing in / reflect, how much you move around and how tall your silhouette is (whether you're standing up, crouching or even going prone). Sniper Elite 3 has a new way of doing things, something I call a "Phantom Actor".


A Phantom Actor works like this:

Whenever any NPC discovers a sounds or similar in a given location, a Phantom Actor is created in that spot (within the navmesh). The Phantom Actor is a game logic representation of the NPC's perception of where their enemy (or anything else they're inclined to check out) is located. As such, they'll go check that out and, once they "see" a phantom actor, the phantom actor "dies" and the mob will go back to "general detection". A player hiding from NPCs may leave a trail of Phantom Actors that the NPCs will pursue and confront. If memory is an issue, a dev can decide a maximum of phantom actors that can exist simultaneously, and the oldest phantom actor may be removed once the next phantom actor is spawned. Phantom Actors could also be faction-based (i.e. if a Raider perceives a phantom actor, all other nearby Raiders will perceive it as well).

As long as NPCs discover a real actor / player, they will prefer that target over a phantom actor (although the phantom actors will still persist until the NPC explicitly discovers them - which can create interesting AI moments that could fool us players too, thinking that more NPCs exists in the area due to the action going on). In Sniper Elite 3, the player was able to see his own "phantom actor" (thus knowing where the enemy believes that you're located), but that's an additional rendering feature that's got nothing to do with the game logic itself. So in Fallout 4, Phantom Actors would simply be hidden inside the game logic, but we would experience it in the form of a very different (and much more interesting, realistic and sometimes intelligent) NPC combat behaviour).

Phantom Actors are basically a love letter to tacticians and fans of stealth games, and it shouldn't be hard to add to the existing Creation Engine, nor should it require much more of the memory since Phantom Actors are nothing more than unrendered, stationary mobs. We could even get a new Perk that allows us to see Phantom Actors, the same way that we see it in Sniper Elite 3, allowing us an even better control of what the enemy is likely going to do and where they're likely to go search for you.

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In conclusion, I'm a major fan of Fallout 4. The game is absolutely awesome, but I've been playing Bethesda games since Daggerfall and, as someone who loves stealth play, it's very frustrating to see how little the stealth system has evolved. These as some of my favorite games, and so it's just natural that I want to see them become even better. But the stealth system in Fallout 4 is really bad, compared to so many other games - including the original Splinter Cell game, which is now 13 years old.

Anyways, what do y'all think? Does anyone have some other suggestions for how to improve the Stealth System? Anyone planning on any mods? Discuss!

Dont mind how stealth works, as it is not the main theme of the game, its no metal gear solid or Thief, stealth is but one tool in a toolbox and so ya cant really expect it to have any major depth to it.

I agree with you, but the thing is that we'd be getting a massively improved system at a minimal extra effort. So in a sense, my post can be taken as a suggestion to Bethesda for future Fallout 4 content (e.g. a major content patch that overhauls the game in several areas, including Stealth - or - a future DLC in which Stealth is a major theme (but not a necessity, since not all players are into stealth as you said)).

The simplest way to add Phantom Actors, for instance, is to literally design a new "mob" in the game that spawns under specific conditions and isn't rendered for the player (unless you got that new Perk which allows you to see them). Phantom Actors would be of a separate faction (which all other Factions are hostile towards). A rendered Phantom Actor is just a static, stationary entity with some basic shadow textures, maybe even some transparency to signify that it's not a real NPC but rather just a perceived "phantom" entity.

the only thing that really bugs me about the stealth system is that all npc's are obviously stone deaf.

i mean, you can drop ten bowling balls into a pile of tin buckets in a bus full of raiders, hidden behind nothing but a twig, and _nothing_

but dare sneak run or, mind you, stand up for just a sec, and be it in The Darkest Corner behind 10 walls, all hell breaks loose. in the tenth next room. =)

No offense, but its easy for random Joe on the internet to say its minimal effort.

No offense, but its easy for random Joe on the internet to say that it's easy for random Joe on the internet to say its minimal effort. You can literally say that about every comment ever made on the internet.

Not to mention the fact that "effort is minimal" is a statement of comparison. Don't tell me that adding an untextured, unrendered model to the game with no sounds, AI or animations is a complex matter, when compared to adding a all-new enemy model, fully textured and with a full set of animations, AI and sounds.

Game design is largely a matter of abstract problemsolving rather than just the technicalities of logic and rendering. And yes, game design is damn hard (I would know, since I've learned C++ and I understand game design, systems architecture, etc), but they're doing it and they're designing far more complex stuff than what I'm suggesting. Or are they? Well, let's find out.

I like stealth and I like stealth in this game. I use it alot, I respect its mechanics and I have adapted to it. As I adapt to other games stealth systems and its actually fun to play and master different versions.

Anyhow, as it has been done before with bethesda games many stealth mods will be made by modders and I'm sure one will find a mod to suit a specific stealth playstyle.

As far as I know this is not true.

I've walked next to raiders (lvl 4 sneak, agility 12, darker nights mod) and they did not spot me or turn hostile until I was very close. Crouching seems to give a massive sneak effectiveness boost which creates this illusion that sneak is a mode.

Whether something is technically a mode or not, logically speaking, isn't really what I was getting at. My point is more abstract, in that the act of crouching / sneaking gives you an unreasonably high detection reduction (making it feel like a "mode", hence breaking realism and immersion). And once you're detected, the enemies somehow have a magical vision of where you are, even if you ran away and hid behind 5 walls and you're sitting completely still, sneaking and not making a single sound. They still find you.

Crouching should give a much smaller bonus to your Sneaking, because all it does is lowering your silhouette. Detection should be much more affected by things like audial and visual cues. In fact, lowering your silhouette in real life usually creates even more sounds, because more of your clothes are snagging against eachother. The most silent approach is to be slightly bents and walking on the front of your footsoles.

Think stealth mode is more to indicate that you try to move silent. its also used for pick pocketing.

The phantom actor idea is cool, however something like it already exist, in Skyrim I regularly used arrows to draw enemy attention to an area. Say enemy stand behind cover, an arrow in the back wall makes enemy walk over.

Enemies uses supressive fire in FO4 in your estimated direction. If you move they will continue shooting at the old position.

If that's true, then this could just be a case of the system being bugged, cause in my 315+ hours of playing Fallout 4, I've experience being shot towards, but once I move away, they will start tracking me down with Magic Vision. That said, I do have only Sneak II. So the experience might be different with the max Perk, but that's not good either because Magic Vision isn't a good way to handle poor Sneaking, IMO.

I just don't like the armor that turns you invisible in stealth, you can weir armor that makes you move faster if you don't like how slow you are and I don't have a problem with sneak mode because you don't need to be in it to not be detected, you just don't know how close you are to being detected you are outside of sneak mode.

If you go from [caution] to [danger] the AI is able to track more easily even if you relocate. As long as you are still [caution] relocating shouldn't be an issue.

There has also been situations where I've had a shootout with enemies and there have been other enemies on the upper floor which "know I'm there" but lose track of me after things quiet down.

I've made a topic about sneaking myself and took this pick:

http://imgur.com/90Mwpbd

Eh, I've got no issue with Sneak being a toggleable "mode". It represents that you're actively trying to hide / reduce noise / hug cover / etc, as opposed to just walking around normally. I suppose one could separate "crouch" and "sneak" into two toggles, if one wanted to add excess buttons.

perhaps on PC but it would not work for consoles, they are trying to make buttons do something else by holding them as it is. We really just need button mapping on console where you deside what button does what and than they can have more commands than we have buttons.

They should tinker with it however its better than biowares and cdproject reds which is their onlyreal competition

I dont mind it. all we can do is hope bethesda tries something new with stealth next game though every time they do that people [censored]...although they [censored] when they dont do something new so just relax.

"Sneak mode" is not about lowering your silhouette, it's about actively trying to be stealthy. Making less noise, being more aware of your surrounding/NPCs (hence the [ caution ] or [caution])...

You can also relocate without the enemies knowing, even during the fight. Of course if you are sprinting they will see/hear you relocate and know where you are.

I am able to start a fight, and relocate while the enemies are trying to circle my old position. I can walk normally without everything aggroing, if I'm light enough.

I have my grips with the stealth system in Beth's game, but I think you (Madolite) have to seriously test it more. Half of what you are saying is simply not how it works.

Try to be lighter (not running around with 200lbs of armor equipped) if you want to be able to run without being spotted.

I just 'love' how they all give away their position every time they hear an enemy is around.

How about you stop talking and actually go silently looking for the enemy without being a loudmouth and letting the enemy know what your intentions are and that you're going to search for him.

I like the mechanics of sneaking, it's the enemies that sort of annoy me. As someone said, they're all deaf and when they DO suspect there's an enemy they start dashing around like idiots, making my pipboy light up.

All in all, though, I'm perfectly happy with sneaking as it is.

I actually like the toggle when it comes to sneaking. games where the sneak system is always on seem just a bit to unrealistic

Uhh what?

MOST games use stealth as a separate mode from normal movement. Even in more traditional RPGs, like Pillars of Eternity, is sneaking a button click activated mode.

The only games I can think of that don't are purely stealth based games like Splinter cell and Metal Gear.

I would say that there have been slight improvements, but not much. off the top of my head the brackets around "Hidden" and "Caution" giving you information on just how well you are hidden is a healthy improvement.

I would definitely like enemies to search an area more realistically when finding the body of one of their allies, and stay alert longer than until you pass stealth conditions again.

I agree that this mechanic really needs an overhaul, literally having not evolved over several games is just inexcusable.. I love playing stealth characters but it's always felt wonky in Bethesda's games, its hard to find a good median between being impossible to detect (which happens at a certain point, was literally stabbing a gunner in the face while he circled around looking for me) and being too easy to detect (parts of the game where I'd be crouched in the grass and a raider hears me when they are inside a building not even near a window)

I think it's pretty good as it is, and as much as a stealth mode I see it as a "Senses on full Awareness." mode.

I sneak most of the time, not because I don't want other things to notice me, but because I want to notice other things.

Most people go through their lives on what I call Autopilot, nearly oblivious to what's going on around them, and the default mode is on the high end of that, while the stealth mode is on the other end.

As other's have said, this isn't a game about stealthing, and as such, a separate mode is appropriate, and for those of us that choose to use it, this games Stealth mode gives feedback, in the form of the [ Hidden ] [ Hidden ] [ caution ] [ Caution ] that I for one, think is very useful.