Yeah, I probably should have gone with something more wordy & intelligent, like "Yes, it's better than Securerom, Ubisoft's travesty, or other online DRM systems, but I feel that there are better offline solutions."

Sorry.

What a shame, I was really looking forward to this game but I won't be playing it if it has this garbage. Having online activation for a single player game is already two strikes against it but requiring steam for a retail game means it's an automatic pass for me.

Steam has been nothing but a problem every time I've tried to use it and takes too much control away from the consumer. I don't sell my used games but I won't put up with a company trying to take that right away(locking a serial to an account), I also like to have more control over game patching than allow or deny(especially since the latter doesn't always seem to work).

Many people seem to like steam so I doubt this will affect sales too much but for me this game went from being one I would probably buy on day one to being one I doubt I'll ever buy. I like Bethesda RPG's(I currently own Fallout 3, Fallout 3 GOTY, Oblivion with both retail expansions, and Morrowind GOTY) and I was looking forward to seeing what Obsidian would do with the game so I'm pretty bummed right now.

Something I asked in the other Steam thread that got to big, I'd really like to know the answer.

Are there any plans to sunset the DRM once sales have slacked off and the game isn't a money maker? Will the inevitable FO3-GOTY-style version be free of this? Because I can wait a year if it makes us both happy.

I have been a steam user since 2004, I buy all of my PC games from there, I think steam plus new vegas is very smart, AS LONG as it doesn't interfeir with mods in any way

I've been using Steam since HL2, and I own about 60 games on Steam, so before you accuse me, I'm not a "Steam hater." I don't like this move. For a single player only game, I shouldn't have to go online to activate it and be online to play it. I know Steam has an offline mode, but as we discussed in the previous thread, you can't leave Steam offline permanently.

I don't like GFWL, but I don't understand those who say "it's a better DRM system than Steam." GFWL isn't DRM. It was only used for achievements and to purchase DLC. I don't care for achievements, and I didn't buy the DLC (I waited and bought the GotY edition), so as far as Fallout 3 goes, I hardly even knew GFWL was there. GFWL in Fallout 3 was less intrusive as Steam will be for FNV. Fallout 3 only used SecuROM disk check, and only on the FalloutLauncher.exe, you could run the game with the Fallout3.exe and not need to put the disk in the drive.

I just timed how long it takes to start up Steam. It takes nearly a minute (~50 seconds) for it to load. In under 30 seconds, I can start Fallout 3 AND load my last save.

Like I said, I don't like this move, but since I already use Steam, it's not going to effect me. It will however effect a good friend of mine. As I already discussed his situation in the previous locked thread, his only option for internet access at his home is dialup. It's not worth it because there isn't much you can do on the internet anymore unless you have broadband. He has a fast connection were he works, so he doesn't need internet access at home. He can download patches and mods from work and take home. He loves Fallout 3, and now he won't be able to play NV because of this stupid decision.

i agree , steam has never given me any problems over the year i have been using it with all my steam games.

I answered you in the other thread that there has never been a game yet that patched out Steamworks. If you are repeating the question hoping for a Bethesda answer, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

It's not about whether the program causes problems with playing games, it is about the program removing ownership and control over your games. The counter-arguments in this thread are mostly "yeah well Steam is cool"... none of them address the main reason people are upset by this news.

As far as I heard, you could install the copy with the disc. So he could just login to steam. (Which takes no more than dialup).
Install the game, and then he can disconnect and play it in offline mode.
Cause you can deny the patches, if he has to go online some time. No problem there.

It usually won't let you play it offline unpatched if a patch has been released.

I also like to control which version of the game I have. Sometimes the newest version isn't always the best (and can conflict with mods). I know you can stop the updates (which only seems to work when it feels like), but I should be able to pick what update I want. It shouldn't matter what version the game is when there's only single player.



They're only reading the first line. Fallout NV will use steam for achievements, friends etc. Which is, of course, good when you use steam a lot. But they're not taking into account that there's less choice all around when you must use steam.

I wonder if patches will even have other ways to download, since the game will require Steam and Steam auto-patches (or can that be turned off?).

-----

Which reminds me of the other small issue - suppose a patch breaks your install. I'm guessing reverting to an earlier patch and staying there would be alot harder.

(or you're using mods that are patch dependant and will need to be updated for a new patch; in which case you'd want to wait to apply the latest patch. Otherwise, you can't continue your game.....)



Yeah, somewhat specific cases. But I'm just trying to figure out all the potential drawbacks.

Yeah, now we have no option.

You'd be surprised
After all, this is the same company that had the gall to release Rogue Warrior, no?

Never underestimate the ability of upper-management to make stupid decisions.

From reading the prior posts these seem to be the big points that were talked about:
Requires a Working Login to even move to offline...
Requires a good connection...
Will not allow you to play a game without patching...
Once started a patch you cant stop...
Will Randomly stop working offline and force an Online Auth Check...
Does not like people that travel overseas...
Will not work in some countries...
Forces every user to have an internet connection...
Steam uses up to 30megs of ram
Steam sometimes does 10,000 I/O writes in as short as 5 minutes
The Interface sometimes glitches and requires a full purge and multiple file delete to get working...
Servers are not always up 24/7
Its not easy to launch a game, there are many steps needed to play what you want
F:NV may need to be launched from a special mod though steam only, negating the EXE launch.

Points made about account removal:
-Challenge a charge on your account even with proof from your credit card/bank it was not you?
---account canceled
-Receive a gift from a person that's not up&up?
---account canceled
-Need to use a modified EXE or a launcher program for Extended scripts or just because you found a great memory tweak EG: FOSE
---game will not work and steam will cancel account for modifying files that's not in mod format if found out
-Speak you mind on the forums or in community chat to much
---account canceled


With Fallout 3 it was simple:
GFWL screwed up?
--click button play offline forever no problem
Disk check not working?
--Use Fallout 3 EXE file to launch game problem solved
Its 2025 and your kid askes about Fallout 3?
--install game it works YAY, enjoy the memories
Awesome mod that needs the Fallout Script Extender thats constantly updated by community?
--install launcher program and enjoy your game
Realizing the majority of all the GOOD mods need FOSE
--Priceless
Realizing Fallout New Vegas wont allow a script extender because Steam is like a mean older borther?
Realizing your freedom as a gamer is taken away with a 3rd party program?
---You Decide

There is only one Positive for Steam games. Developers have the option of allowing there game to run from an EXE inside there game install location. The EXE launch (like Fallout 3) would bypass the need to keep steam running. That would give us all the functionality F3 had by allowing the use of FOMM and FOSE. If this is the case then all the above posts are moot. And there is no reason not to support the game.

Why cant more developers and publishers take the stance of CD Project? Price the game inline with the quality of the game... and content delivered... Do not require any component to need online access unless that component exclusively is designed for mulitplayer... Diskchecks and Serial numbers which work correctly are all that's needed... Entice the player to support the game by using a price model that reflects the product delivered as in expansion cost and base vanilla cost...

I want to play my games in 2025 and beyond, will steam be around then? Could i find a way to make it work from the install files on my Retail box? Will it move to GOG.com and then i don't have to worry about all that?

I'm thinking about using a new Steam-account for this game. I don't want to loose all the games on my account because Valve doesn't approve of some mod.

Oninusar: Your rant about FOSE being blocked is completely invalid: Steam is fine with FOSE, in fact they helped the FOSE team make the loader work with Steam versions of FO3.

Please get your facts straight before ranting.

I've never heard about that before :/ Only when people have messed with certain files (don't remember what they are called) and try playing online with it, which is considered a hack, and your account gets VAC banned.

Me neither, but from what I have heard Valve likes deleting accounts. And the risk of that happening seems bigger if you use mods. Most mods probably work fine, but if some mod does something that Steam doesn't like you could loose your account.

I'm sure it depends on the mod and the game. And I bet it matters more for multiplayer games in cases where people are modding (or exploiting/hacking really) to gain unfair advantage over others. Or hack the Steam system to get around stuff. Not so much in single player games which are designed to use mods. (like Torchlight, which even has "Installed a mod/ 5 mods / 10 mods" Steam achievements.)

There's always those stupid rumours, better check your sources. Steam will, first of all when problems arise, lock your account. Then you would get contacted about the specific reasons for this lock and can provide your own information about said issue - in most cases it's a thing of billing (for example if a credit card after purchase gets locked), and that's only to stop fraud. If you are caught cheating in a VAC protected game the only thing that will happen is banning you from VAC games online.
In any case, if evidence against fraud, cheating or other misuse of Steam (f.e. logins from several IPs in different countries at the same time of day) are credible both can be taken back and full access to your account will be re-enabled.
Long story short - to have an account deleted one must be absolutely positively guilty.
That said, mods that would lead to your account being disabled would have to be for those VAC enabled games and you would have to use a mod to cheat your way to success.

And, as stated before...

Steam Devs have no qualms with FOSE. They even helped the FOSE team members adapt the FOSE loader to Steam versions of FO3.

Since everyone after my post seemed to skip right past it.

It's true that having an ultra-minimalist cd-check that only required you to have to CD in the drive during install but let you play without (heck you could even completely uninstall securom and still play the game without problem) was so intrusive, instead having a DRM that force you to activate online every time you install the game or alter your hardware, that prevent you to play the game in certain country, and makes you completely dependent of any activation policy changes that Valve may decide to make in the future, is so much better.

If you got exited out of the game all the time it was simply because..... well the game was buggy, it was a common issue, I had it too, it had nothing to do with securom (this time).

Sad but true. :nope:

But there is always a first time, it would be great if Bethesda were the first to release, in some months, a DRM removal patch allowing the game to run without Steam.

Heck if even Ubisoft are capable of releasing DRM-free patches for some of their games why wouldn't Bethesda be able to do the same.

What? When did they do that?

I didn't knew about it until recently either, but Securom online activation and CD-check was actually removed from both Farcry 2 and Anno 1404 (Dawn of Discovery) some months after release.
(But that was before they started their UPlay "always online" nonsense so no guarantee it will happen again on more recent game.)