To Steam or not to Steam : V - Skyrim

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:49 pm

That really means diddly squat. They are under no obligation to do anything if you lose your account or the servers go down. It doesn't matter what they say, they do not have to do it if it's not guaranteed in the agreement. Though really, Steam going down isn't the most likely scenario. More likely would be that Valve gets bought out. So even if they are honest when they say they'll disable authentication if the servers go down, a company buying them may have no such altruistic intentions. Though how would the Steam client tell the difference between the servers being shut down due to them going out, compared to any other reason that servers can be down for? Not to mention the legal ramifications... can Valve unilatterally disable the DRM for all games that rely on their DRM with no notice? Sorry, but it just sounds to me like sweet nothings to keep users from freaking out over a real possibility.

Well, CEO Newell said it and that's still not enough for you, although i agree with you they are in their right not to do it. Though, pissing off millions of customers ain't exactly the best thing to do. Sony made that mistake with the PS3 and got pwnd by the hackers. The EULA is just a cover-ass for legal stuff, sure they can use it where they see fit but that won't make a good name for them. That's why they have support, try to help those with problems. Treat your customers good and they tread you back the same way.

can Valve unilatterally disable the DRM for all games that rely on their DRM with no notice? --> this no one knows, but probably when the publisher struck the deal with valve they informed him what would happen if they go bankrupt.

Though how would the Steam client tell the difference between the servers being shut down due to them going out, compared to any other reason that servers can be down for? --> ask valve not me, i don't work for them

Someone buying them sounds logical to me too, but right now they must be really stupid to sell it. It's simply a goldmine for profit.

As for the "what if's", right now nobody should worry about steam going down, somewhere i read they made 200% income from selling stuff and accumulated 30 millions of users so that ain't a small feat.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:15 pm

Well, CEO Newell said it and that's still not enough for you, although i agree with you they are in their right not to do it. Though, pissing off millions of customers ain't exactly the best thing to do. Sony made that mistake with the PS3 and got pwnd by the hackers.

Sony and the PS3 is still around, though. If Valve goes out of bussiness, what would they lose by having a bunch of pissed off ex-customers? Or if a company buying Valve doesn't care about Steam's customers?

As for the "what if's", right now nobody should worry about steam going down, somewhere i read they made 200% income from selling stuff and accumulated 30 millions of users so that ain't a small feat.

Well, as I've said, I don't buy games as a short-term thing. If I buy games, I tend to want to keep them and play them for years into the future, or sell them off if I end up not liking them. No one can say what situation Valve will be in, in the future. Those 'what ifs' are very pertinent questions to me, and without solid answers, it's too risky for my tastes. Not to mention it relies on the trust of a bussiness man to keep his word...

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:37 am

will steam ever give you a hardcopy of the game or is it always just download?

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:57 pm

will steam ever give you a hardcopy of the game or is it always just download?

AFAIK it is strictly digital downloads.

I have purchased digital premium editions that provide soundtracks, behind the scenes videos, etc., all in digital format.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:20 pm

Since people are still continually repeating the misinformation that you can't move your game data elsewhere, here is the post I made on the matter:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1169738-to-steam-or-not-to-steam/page__view__findpost__p__17236785

You can do it. NTFS and many other file systems have some neat features. For Windows they are just hidden in command line operations by default. Thankfully there are handy things like this:
http://schinagl.priv.at/nt/hardlinkshellext/hardlinkshellext.html

All you do is install the game and then after it is done close Steam out entirely. Right click the directory name under for example:
D:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\gamename (you're right click "gamename" in the tree) and click cut. Then you'd paste it where you want it on the SSD. Then you right click the directory on the SSD and choose "Pick Link Source." After doing that in a blank spot inside the common directory or on the common directory in the tree list click "Drop as..." and then "Junction."

What this will do is effectively allow Steam to use that directory on the HDD but it will point to the actual directory on the SSD. Steam will not know the difference. You can do this with any other directory you want too, such as the data directory for Oblivion, etc.

Hard Links allow a single file to exist in multiple places in the same file system, without taking up multiple places on the disk. That is a feature that would not really help with your desire here though since hard links only work within the same partition. A symbolic link can link a file on one drive to a location on another drive, but for your purposes a junction is the best solution.

You can also change the default location of the various Windows directory settings:
http://www.vista4beginners.com/Move-user-files-folders-to-another-partition
http://benosullivan.co.uk/windows/how-to-move-the-program-files-and-user-folders-in-windows-7-to-a-different-drive/

There are advanced ways to configure those directories by configuring a custom (perfectly legal I must add) Windows installation ISO for use on a DVD or other bootable device/network drive as well.

The junction thing alone would solve your install location issue with Steam though.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:30 pm

will steam ever give you a hardcopy of the game or is it always just download?

You can buy the game retail, which will come with a disc. You can use the disc to install a game in Steam. This is good for internet with a cap or spotty service. I may buy retail on this one just in case.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:10 pm

You can buy the game retail, which will come with a disc. You can use the disc to install a game in Steam. This is good for internet with a cap or spotty service. I may buy retail on this one just in case.

There are only a very tiny number of games where the publishers allowed Steam to do this. It was quite annoying to learn that I couldn't transfer my DA:O product key to the Steam version, for example.

Most likely, if you want to have Skyrim added to your Steam library, you can only do this by buying the digital download on Steam, not the retail boxed version.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:03 pm

Why ought we have to go through the hassle that's been explained to install the game where we want to?

In an ideal world (at least for me) Steam would work as follows;

1. Insert disc or download installer.
2. Install game where I choose to select.
3. Authenticate check (if required) which would make use of Steam.
4. Do you want to search for an update y/n?
5. Ignore Steam from this point onwards unless I want to use it's features.
6. Play game.

No mandatory first run updates, no unreliable offline mode, no pestering from Valve, just play the game.

Pipe dream though. Thankfully Good Old Games has the right idea. I've had people ask if I'll put something I've bought from there on disc - not a chance. It's cheap enough there that there's no excuse for them to not get it themselves, not to mention it's a massive kick in the teeth for the service as they pride themselves on being DRM free. You could download it at a library onto a flash drive.

Come on Beth, let us know what's going on. Please? :turned:

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:15 am

Why ought we have to go through the hassle that's been explained to install the game where we want to?

In an ideal world (at least for me) Steam would work as follows;

1. Insert disc or download installer.
2. Install game where I choose to select.
3. Authenticate check (if required) which would make use of Steam.
4. Do you want to search for an update y/n?
5. Ignore Steam from this point onwards unless I want to use it's features.
6. Play game.

No mandatory first run updates, no unreliable offline mode, no pestering from Valve, just play the game.

Pipe dream though. Thankfully Good Old Games has the right idea. I've had people ask if I'll put something I've bought from there on disc - not a chance. It's cheap enough there that there's no excuse for them to not get it themselves, not to mention it's a massive kick in the teeth for the service as they pride themselves on being DRM free. You could download it at a library onto a flash drive.

Come on Beth, let us know what's going on. Please? :turned:

It's little more hassle than creating a desktop shortcut. While it would be nice to choose where to put the game files in the Steam UI, the method I posted is not hard.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:08 pm

Thankfully Good Old Games has the right idea.

Indeed. They distribute games DRM free

Did you know GOG was made by CD Projekt? The same folks who developed The Witcher/2. :celebration:

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:26 am

No mandatory first run updates,

right click on the game in your Library and change the Properties dropdown menu from "Always Keep This Game Up to Date" to "Do Not Update Automatically"

no unreliable offline mode,

I understand some have reported problems. It works just fine for me when I'm traveling with no Internet in my hotel, and on at least 3 occasions when my ISP has gone down at home.

no pestering from Valve,

Settings -> Interface -> uncheck the box labeled "Notify me about new games, etc."

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:34 pm

You can buy the game retail, which will come with a disc. You can use the disc to install a game in Steam. This is good for internet with a cap or spotty service. I may buy retail on this one just in case.

There are only a very tiny number of games where the publishers allowed Steam to do this. It was quite annoying to learn that I couldn't transfer my DA:O product key to the Steam version, for example.

Most likely, if you want to have Skyrim added to your Steam library, you can only do this by buying the digital download on Steam, not the retail boxed version.

I'm not talking about indie developers that put out a disc later. New games from major publishers that are using Steam as their DRM let you use the disc that comes with the games to install. Fallout New Vegas, Mafia II and FEAR2 for example. Games that don't use Steam specifically but are sold on Steam and at retail don't normally let you put the retail version to the Steam account. One exception I can think of is Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, there are a handful of others.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:34 pm

I'm not talking about indie developers that put out a disc later. New games from major publishers that are using Steam as their DRM let you use the disc that comes with the games to install. Fallout New Vegas, Mafia II and FEAR2 for example. Games that don't use Steam specifically but are sold on Steam and at retail don't normally let you put the retail version to the Steam account. One exception I can think of is Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, there are a handful of others.

The problem I had was with Dragon Age: Origins, not any indie developers. (I bought the download of DA:O from the EA store, but I bought DA2 from Steam.)

Here is the list of games where you can do this - something like 30 or 40 games, apart from the obvious inclusion of Valve games

Spoiler

Valve CD Keys in this format: ####-#####-####
Valve CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
AI War CD Keys in various formats
Aliens vs. Predator (2010 Release) CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Alpha Prime CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Audiosurf CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Call of Duty: Black Ops CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare is not accepted on Steam
Civilization V CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Commander: Conquest of the Americas CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Cricket Revolution CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Dark Messiah CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Dark Messiah CD Keys may also have been printed incorrectly, please see the Dark Messiah article
Darksiders CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Note: The number 2 and letter Z may look very similar.
Dawn of War II CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Defense Grid CD Keys in this format (Direct2Drive only): 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Empire: Total War CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-DDEFGH3-IJK4L-MNOPQ-RST56
F.E.A.R. 2: Project Origin CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Fallout: New Vegas CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Football Manager 2009 CD Keys in this format: 1AB2CD3FGH456I7JK8LMNOP9Q
Football Manager 2010 CD Keys in this format: 1AB2CD3FGH456I7JK8LMNOP9Q
Football Manager 2011 CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Front Mission Evolved CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Global Agenda CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Note: Keys purchased directly from the Global Agenda website cannot be registered on Steam.
GTI Racing CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
GTR Evolution CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Just Cause 2 CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Note: Please input all O's and 0's as Q's for Just Cause 2
Kane & Lynch 2: Dog Days CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Killing Floor CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
King Arthur - The Role-playing Wargame CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
The Last Remnant CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Lionheart: Kings' Crusade CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Lost Planet: Extreme Condition CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Lost Planet: Colonies Edition CD Keys are not accepted on Steam
Mafia 2 CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Metro 2033 CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
MLB Front Office Manager CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Mount & Blade CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Mount & Blade: Warband CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
NBA 2K9 CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Napoleon: Total War CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Order of War CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Prey CD Keys in this format: AAB1BB2C345CDD6E E7
R.U.S.E. CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Note: R.U.S.E. keys from Ubisoft's Digital River service are not accepted on Steam
RACE - the WTCC Game CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
RACE 07 CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Ragdoll Kung Fu CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Railworks CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Red Orchestra CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Rogue Warrior CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
SiN Episodes: Emergence CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Saint's Row 2 CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Serious Sam HD CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Shattered Horizon CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
The Ship CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Ship Simulator Extremes CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Silent Hill Homecoming CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Sniper: Ghost Warrior CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Space Trader CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Speedball 2 - Tournament in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Star Trek: D-A-C CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
STCC - The Game CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Supreme Commander 2 CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Torchlight CD Keys in this format: 1ABC-D3FG-4567-JK8L
Note: Only keys purchased directly from Runic Games or Perfect World prior to May 19th, 2010 can be registered on Steam.
Unreal Tournament 3 CD Keys in this format: 1AB2-3FGH-456I-K8LM
Velvet Assassin CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
Worldwide Soccer Manager 2009 CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q
X3: Terran Conflict CD Keys in this format: 1ABC-D3FG-4567-JK8L
Zeno Clash CD Keys in this format: 1AB2C-D3FGH-456I7-JK8LM-NOP9Q

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:10 pm

NO!

Steam should be OPTIONAL not forced!

People should be able to buy the DVD version and play it without requiring Steam if they want to.

+1

A retail-disk version of a single-player game should not require any internet connectivity.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:47 pm

Since people are still continually repeating the misinformation that you can't move your game data elsewhere, here is the post I made on the matter:
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1169738-to-steam-or-not-to-steam/page__view__findpost__p__17236785

I just installed steam to d:\steam\ on my computer, first thing it did after install was to ask me if I want to install a old game I bought two years ago and did not bother to reinstall on my new computer :whistling:

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:28 pm

Sony and the PS3 is still around, though. If Valve goes out of bussiness, what would they lose by having a bunch of pissed off ex-customers? Or if a company buying Valve doesn't care about Steam's customers?

Well, as I've said, I don't buy games as a short-term thing. If I buy games, I tend to want to keep them and play them for years into the future, or sell them off if I end up not liking them. No one can say what situation Valve will be in, in the future. Those 'what ifs' are very pertinent questions to me, and without solid answers, it's too risky for my tastes. Not to mention it relies on the trust of a bussiness man to keep his word...

My point with the Sony comparison was that the community won't sit with a thumb it's the ass. They won't just piss of their customers, their reputation as a developer will be [censored]

Given they go with the reputation of one of the developers that values their consumers, i highly doubt they'll just decide to screw ppl over. As for the sellout i hope they don't sell it to Micro$oft, couse i may as well volunteerly delete my account... one things for certain - they surely couldn't care less about the whole situation, let alone the customers. All they do care is $$$

But whatever man, i tend to value life more than just computer games. I don't think just couse i use steam i should worry all that much about loosing my games. And again IF it happens and they do away with all ppl's accounts... well it will svck but life goes on. There is risk to anything, nothing is certain in life. It's not certain that your retail copy at home wont get scratched and leave you with no game, it's not certain that when you walk don't the street you won't get hit by a car, nothing is certain - only what if, what if, what if...

I use steam couse i find it good and keeps all things in one place. Hell, 80 or 90 % of the games i got were -75% + off from sales. Most of them costed 60 euro on release, so a 60 euro game i get for 5 to 10 euro = profit! They sell entire publisher catalogs with 50+ games for 60 euro, even for less. So for 1 game you could get 50 or whatever the number. That's another reason i use it - it's cheap!

Yet i say again - for me steam is a good thing but for some i see it's not, so i am all hip for the option to use steam at your own choice and not be forced to use it!

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:16 pm

Try running a game. It ramps up to around 70-90MB usage and about 2-3% CPU usage.

Basically a digital game store application that alos provides chat services, achevement tracking, DRM, and in game web browsing of the steme store. Basically everything I personally don't want with Skyrim.

So in a nutshell, Steam makes Skyrim available to download from the internet instead of buying the box from the store? Well that doesn't sound very enticing. I want a box. I even still have my Daggerfall box.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:16 pm

I just installed steam to d:\steam\ on my computer, first thing it did after install was to ask me if I want to install a old game I bought two years ago and did not bother to reinstall on my new computer :whistling:

I'm not sure how that to relates to my quote? Yeah if Steam doesn't let you specify where for each game it's an inconvenience, but you can still move the folder and junction it elsewhere after.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:51 pm

right click on the game in your Library and change the Properties dropdown menu from "Always Keep This Game Up to Date" to "Do Not Update Automatically"

That doesn't work during install. If I really want version 1.1 of the game, but Steam has already version 1.2, I'm out of luck with them.

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:25 am

Well of course the game will be available on Steam to buy.

But just don't *force* Steam to be required. That simple.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:02 pm

if Steam is a requirement AKA Steamworks, I'll have no choice but to not buy, just like with New Vegas I simply didn't get it just because of the Steamworks.

Now I don't hate Steam as an option but due to my geographic area I'm limited to dial-up & as such a forced dl of Gigs of patches just to play a SP I buy on a disc is not something I'm willing to do (again).

» Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:46 am

if Steam is a requirement AKA Steamworks, I'll have no choice but to not buy, just like with New Vegas I simply didn't get it just because of the Steamworks.

Now I don't hate Steam as an option but due to my geographic area I'm limited to dial-up & as such a forced dl of Gigs of patches just to play a SP I buy on a disc is not something I'm willing to do (again).

It's kinda Bethesda's fault if they make GB sized patches

Most games on Steam do not require such patches to work, especially NOT at release time.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:39 pm

No Beth game ever needed Gigabyte sized patches.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:07 pm

This is not a choice, amusing as the constant topics about it might be.

If you want to play Skyrim on the PC, you will be using Steam - Period.

I would love to say "Get Over It", but that would be foolish - I know alot of peeps have genuine concerns about Steam, but that IS the future for Skyrim.

» Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:32 pm

I don't get peoples' concerns about Steam. I'll be getting a hard copy probably, and if I have to use Steam to play it then I couldn't care less. I use it a lot, never had any problems...