Ok - so Morrowind is an old game but the opportunity to monetize it even more is now possible with Bethesda allowing paid mods for Skyrim

Having an older game monetized with paid content is not new to Valve - eg TF2 is a mint in hat disguise - but I am not sure Morrowind has the playing population anymore to be worth the effort

However it could become something as many modders for Bethesda games cut their teeth on the MW CS and if Morrowind was added to the Steam workshop - we would see some great new content - but would you pay for it?

No, I would not. But then again I have never downloaded Skyrim mods from Steam Workshop anyway.

My main worry is that this may negatively impact Nexus or any of the other sites that still offer mods for free. When money is involved companies have a habit of trying to drive competition out of business.

I'm guessing the infrastructure from Skyrim wouldn't be too hard to convert for Morrowind. I really really hope they never do so though.

Like Pseron said, if we start getting money involved then Bethesda suddenly has an incentive to shut down competitors. Even stuff like OpenMW might get targeted if they deem it a threat to their new source of income...

NO! Please do not ever do this!
This is possilbly the most horrifying thing I have seen on the beth forums in the history of forever (and in forever I also include the general discussion topic, when it was shut down, that one time, long ago etc.) BLEECHH

Modding is about sharing, not money. If Morrowind had a paid steam workshop, we'd have at least 15 new "OVERHAULS!!II1" within a month. Each of which would be full of dozens of bugs, stolen work, and general half-arsery. And don't get me started on the egos, some of you are going to go nuts when you start telling yourself you're "technically a professional now." Then Darkelfguy will start handing out steam coupons for certain mods at the end of his interviews.

And I promise you that newguy69 won't be upload his first-big-house-mod to the nexus, for free, pfffff. And I know some of the already successful modders will move all their stuff away from Nexus to be sold exclusively. Which just means the rest of us will pirate it stuff behind their back.

Booo

It should be clarified that a game using the Workshop does not mean a game is selling mods. Skyrim has been using the Workshop for a long time before today.

Future games will likely be following this new pay structure (unless it becomes a disaster with Skyrim) but I think the older games will be left alone. No workshops for Oblivion or Fallout 3 have ever been created, despite it working well for Skyrim over the last 3 years.

Does Morrowind need a Workshop? I guess it might be handy for new players, but most of us would prefer the reliable and established tools and methods we already use. And who wants to upload 5,000 mods on another site again?

Does Morrowind need a "pay to use mods" Workshop? I wouldn't pay once cent towards that. And the small amount of people playing the game wouldn't generate much profit for anyone.

No, certainly no
Since I started play this perfect game (morrowind) I just support morrowind moders and only good ones. Anyway, morrowind has nothing to do with steam, why and how would they force us to buy some mods from steam - this is not a skyrim gantleman

Morrowind has been on Steam for quite some time.

Oh yes, I suppose just offering the workshop for Morrowind, for free, would be ok. Perhaps with guides for new players, its just the paid that makes me cringe. Its possible nothing much will change, but the idea of modding for future games being ruined upsets me. The idea of that same problem happening to this game, which I have played forever, and will play as long as I am able, literally scares me.

I say this even being a person who could make just about any mod I wanted for myself, but so much of the fun is in sharing ideas, and seeing what others come up with.

I'm not sure about this. It's definitely something new. My first reaction like everybody else was distaste, but let's not forget it's up to the modder if he/she wants to go for it. They're not forcing anybody to put their work behind a pay wall. For now it just seems to be an infrastructure and legal framework for modders to monetize their work, should they choose to do so.

I think we all need to get a bit more used to the idea. When you consider people are paying for all those crappy mobile apps/facebook microtransaction games etc. what do you think the guys behind dota or counter strike deserve?

I guess we'll see how this plays out...

I am so happy that I have budle version of original game since 2002 (or 2003 not sure) and all expansions since they came out - hey Gabe, you are too slow to catch me

The timing of this announcement is slightly ridiculous, we're actually recording the first episode of Morrowind Modding Podcasts tomorrow and we were going to talk about the monetization of modding even before this announcement was made. Can't say I was expecting something so sudden, but it will be an interesting topic to cover, especially 24 hours after the first wave of monetized mods for Skyrim.

I have to agree with the general sentiment here though and say that mandatory paywalled mods can not possibly be good for the community. Donations are perfectly acceptable, but monetizing mods really seems to be just another way for Valve to get more money for nothing (especially since only 25% of the mod's listed price goes to the mod author).

+1 to all of this. I don't mind (very optional) encouragement available on Nexus while still being able to download any and all mods for free. But having a mod exclusively beind sold is pretty stupid, and I know I'd never buy a mod. Donate yes. Buy no. Very different things. And worst of all, as Wolli said, it would (and will, for Skyrim) encourage tons of "pros" to just print up crap to have as much on sale as possible, which will only boost egos and amount of bad mods. And piracy, for sure.

It would change this forum as the rules have always stated you cannot advertise on it - so modders who wanted payment would have to create other ways to discuss their work

I think it is divisive for the community - I don't care if someone wants to get paid for a mod - just don't come here and spam it

If certain nameless mods are not allowed to be mentioned here I suspect that will happen for paid ones too - it just becomes too destructive with the hey you used Better Bodies in your screenshots but it's not in your mod type accusations

(concerning the current changes to Skyrim's Workshop mods)
We briefly discussed this in the moderator forum... Just as always, each mod can have one thread for people to share and discuss the mod.

If people find a way to abuse this, we'll think about changes that might need to be made.

Steam has a tendency to allow anything on it and allow authors to charge people for poorly made or incomplete products. That alone is a reason to be concerned about paying for mods.

Yet amazingly Valve have allowed a refund if the mod doesn't work or does not do as it advertised - can you imagine that a refund from Steam!

I am uncertain what this means for us if Morrowind was to go into the workshop - I depend on Mash, MCP and MXE as utilities - I played Morrowind before they came out - but each of these stabilized or added a huge dimension of enjoyment to the game - I find it hard to draw a line with my stance on free modding knowing how much effort went into those tools and would it really hurt me for the price of a drink to pay for them?

How many modders ask for help in their threads or chat with others for scripts - if they then make money out of the mods it seems a little abusive to me - and maybe thats the problem - money and friends have never mixed well with me - I'd feel uncomfortable being in a community that was feeding off itself

On the flip side if Morrowind doesn't go on the Workshop then perhaps we will see some Skyrim free to share modders return to Morrowind

To answer the question in one word: Yes, I would. And not think twice about it. (braces for incoming rubbish barage)

I will clarify my point...

1) Old is irrelevant. Until it become freeware, then we as modders are bound by the EULA.

2) Depends on who is doing the modding.

3) Think of how many huge mods that are actually worth paying to play:

- Darknut's DNGDR: I would pay good money for the mod that single-handed fixed the broken, pathetic, anticlimactic, bug ridden, short, and unimagined Red Mountain and Final Battle. After I finished the Vanilla game (which I did before I installed any mods), I felt gamesas and Zenimax owed *ME* money for the awful ending they contrived. Darknut spent over a year on that mod, and he used tools for which he paid himself (which goes to my larger point).

- Tamriel Rebuilt: Even in its perpetual beta state, I would pay money for something of that modding scope.

- Wizard's Island: Huge landmass mod and fairly well done. It's worth some coin to D/L.

- Sotha Sil Expanded: Same rationale as Darknut's mod. Trainwiz did an excellent job.

- Better Bodies and the core Better Bodies mods and NioLiv's Clothes resources: Between Psychodog Studios, et al. (and Neuman had to close it because he was broke. All that history and knowledge down Teh Ether. Imagine if he could have charged 2.5 to 5 quid a D/L. PSD might still be online), Shon Ferguson, AKA LizTail, NioLiv, Dereko, Plangkye, Moranar, and others who remade the Vanilla Marionette Body content, I would pay good money for that. For those who disdain BB, the modding breakthroughs that came from that one mod are still seen to this day.

- Dave Humphrey, tazpn *ESPECIALLY TAZPN* (and later, figment), and The Entire NifTools Team, past and present: The NifTools Max importer/Exporter and NifSkope: The unSodly amount of money, time, and repository of knowledge and reference is immense. Here again, Shon/LizTail is present, as he began the https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/nifla/info to start to decode the .NIF model format, primarily for a then-upstart little programme named Blender. Without which Arcimaestro Anteres, Bahamut, and Pherim would be unknown names.

Dave Humphrey wrote the first .NIF importer for Morrowind for Max 4.2. Dave Humphrey started with Buggerfall Daggerfall modding, and made an unplayable, CTD prone-at-any-minute, game playable. He also created UESP, then moved on Morry modding and Max programming. This man is The Father of Modern TES Modding. Full. Stop.

Aspects of Morry modding simply cannot be done without NifSkope, and for modders who don't have the money, time, or wherewithal for complex modelling programmes, NifSkope and freeware texture programmes are a viable option. Amorilia and The Gang, past and present, haven't seen one iota of cash for this.

http://niftools.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5557#p5557: That man sacrificed mortgage payments, some bills in arrears, and everyday niceties (and an inquisition from his creditor) to buy a copy of 3ds Max, just so's he could write a stable, mostly complete plugin to import .NIF's reliably, since .OBJ is just about worthless, and using three different modelling programmes to convert to .NIF (and not lossless, by the by) is an absolute nightmare. Without tazpn, Morry, Oblivion, and Skyrim modding would not be possible. Full Stop. He's more than earned a copy of Max and Z-brush at no cost to him, yet no earnings to him.

- Maverique: A Morrowind dev who leaked the Blank Animation files from Morrowind. Without that, Better Bodies and Smoother Bodies would never have happened as well as it did, as would *ANY* animation mods.

- Lady E, DarklIllusion, Acid Basick, PhyntoWasp, Bear371, Axel, RX31, Raflod, Oshiel, LizTail, Arcimaestro Anteres, Djok, and Artaios/Dirnae/Hrnchamd: These are the *ONLY* modders who have have *ANY* success modding Morry animation. An unknown art, really, with very few tutorials about (I have tracked down all of them that are known). I would pay to have reliable tools and Morrowind .BIPs and .BVHs, and access to AnImmerse, just like the Devs do/did. Thanks to Fliggerty, and Yacoby http://web.archive.org/web/20090925184724/http://www.yacoby.net/es/forum/12/8830421222620840.html, Axel's findings are still preserved. Thanos's Tower, the original hub of early Max modding, http://www.ageinc.com/Morrowind/. Remarkable. I wonder how much he's received over these years?

- "Rhedd" Griffiths - created the backbone of Better Heads, and wrote the first (and still useful for even Max 2012) tutorial how to make Morrowind heads. Definitely worth money. Without him, we wouldn't have MacKom today (who is a Max user, by the by),

- MCP/MGE : created by the one and only, Sotha Sil Hrnchamd and other lost Modders of Yore, Timeslip and Psyringe. Are you going to tell me with a stone poker face that MCP and MGE aren't worth some drakes? I'd pay for these, too.

- MWSE and MWE: CDCooley wrote the code for MWSE. Without him we would not have Fliggerty, Logitech, MidgetAlien, and a number of other MWSE scripters/modders. MWE was written by Arelorn, which is the precursor to MWSE; Arelorn later was offered employment at gamesas. Arguably, he is the only one known to directly profit from Morrowind Modding at this time.

The time, effort, and money almost *ALL* of these aforementioned spent on Autodesk products (3ds Max and Maya) and not *ONE* thin shilling back to them, to my knowledge. I'd pay good money for a *COMPLETE* importer, meaning *ANY* .NIF I import, *NONE* of the information is lost. gamesas saw fit to release a reliable exporter, but missed the boat with an importer. And back in 2002/2003, Dave Humphrey's lowly Alpha .NIF importer got as much negative reception at the time as the idea of paying for mods does today.

There was *NO* .NIF importer, thus meshes were made Max *TOTALLY* by hand then exported with the TES Exporter. Modders at that time decried the coming plagiarism (and they were largely correct). Fortunately, Morry players and modders have been pretty good with respecting modder's wishes, something that modern players have of which little concept, and less respect. The outright plagiarism and theft is astounding, to put it mildly. Suggesting a README, with or without credits, on Skyrim forums is considered flaming and spamming.

That's not even including ongoing work on other body meshes, skeletons, animation, textures, more scripting being written than American professional wrestling, and the Game Wrapper of Wrappers, OpenMW. I know there is so much more, but think if these people spent a little more time in the scene and posted more of their knowledge for safekeeping. Thank you for GHF, MMH, and Wolflore, Fliggerty.


Just for some Morry histoire and perspective, folks....

1) True. There are much more people who have access to modelling programmes, be it Max (student and commercial), Maya, Blender, Hash Animation, and quite a few others. Max and Blender are the current standards.

2) YEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSS! It does.....rationale in #3 The onus of uploading will most likely be on the modder themselves.

3) Yes, it does. I would pay good money for access to the original Max files of all the .NIFs in the Morrowind compendium, and for access to their original tools as well, not to mention better tools. Axel has made http://forum.bioware.com/topic/19296-3ds-max-official-exporter-z/#entry212250


This is a company that gave the wife of a dev (http://www.reddit.com/r/Morrowind/comments/16wna5/iama_maker_of_the_morrowind_mod_better_bodies_ama/) the access to Max 3.1 and all the NDL/Gamebryo assets (a licence from them at that time was $75,000 USD, just to use AnImmerse) *AND* ...this is most important.... the instructions how to use them. They almost literally said, "Here are the Tools of Kagrenac. Here's how to do it. Make models." Yet the game still is awesome, despite her alleged good work.


Even tazpn's and figment's importers are incomplete in scope and capacity to import completely lossless.


I would gladly pay money now for the access to the resources that woman had, as I have already paid good money for my copies of Max 3.1, 4.2, and 2012 (literally thousands). If I made a mod worth paying money for D/L, I would do it, advertise, and try to get a few shillings of that quid back.

Sorry Squire Val....That ship sailed many moons ago. Summed up in three letters: D. L. C. Now, the business model is academic.


*AND STOP USING THE WORD FREE!* There is no such animal, people.... everything has a cost, be it time, sweat, frustration, time away from family, monetary, and other tangible and measurable costs. That is the thesis of my screed.


Just because the D/L didn't cost you a shilling, doesn't mean somebody hasn't already paid a price.

Not only that. I worry that some modders may feel that they could lose sales by helping other modders. I fear some modders may feel less inclined to offer any help to the "competition." I worry that the open spirit of co-operation may begin to disappear once money is involved.

I really hope I'm just being paranoid about all this. But right now this policy is giving me a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach.

There are so many things I could say here, so many problems I have with what Valve and Zenimax just did to the modding community, but I'm just going to keep it to this:

If we had questions regarding who among us in the modding scene is truly an enthusiast, and who is a charlatan, those questions just got answered.

@Tiebrakre

I donated money to MANY of those people, long ago, esp. to the makers of the 3rd party programs. I even still use the NIF importer =\, so when you list all those mods like that stating they are worth money, it is irritating to those of us who supported them years ago, long before some silly steam paid system.

Maybe you didnt know that LONG ago, I helped to make meshes and textures for tamriel rebuilt? Without even asking for CREDIT? Shame on you, if you want these people to get money for the work, then why wouldn't you simply donate money to them directly, like we always have, so greedy people do not take a chunk?

Mods are free, the time and effort taken is part of the fun, its what I do when I am not working a job. If only a real job was actually that much fun =\.

No they haven't. I have no idea who you might be talking about (and I am happy not knowing). Perhaps I am not looking in the right place, but it is no one in this thread, if that is what you are implying. All I see are people who love and support this community and are a concerned about its future in light of this news.

Right, and so the polarization begins

Guys, it doesn't help anybody when you start to use words like 'charlatan' or 'shame on you'. It is a sensitive topic, and I agree that money does complicate a lot of things. But try to look at it a bit less emotionally involved. Do you really think this was done solely because steam and beth are evil? You really think it's that black and white?

I admit though that the descriptions of those first for pay skyrim mods are a bit sickening.