About the Amulet's makers, from Intercept 7. About the material used, a hunch it's wrought of the material gained from the treaty between Ayleids and Daedra: creatia/magic.


Where the Altmer sought to focus on dracochrysalis, or keeping elder magic bound before it could change into something lesser (and act which ironically required aetherial surplus), the Ayleids harvested castaway creatia from Oblivion by entering a pact with the masters of the Void, the Princes of Misrule.

Aether's run-off in Oblivion, harvested with the authority of the Daedra. You haven't seen it anywhere else, because I'm suggesting the creatia treaty represents a joint-rule of that creatia, between Ayleid and Daedra, and the lands congealed about White-Gold, using Oblivion's, harvested creatia.


The Dawn Era, when Akatosh's perch from eternity allowed lesser spirits to form and the new Mundus to form. Red Tower results from Convention, Aka's perch, stabilizing new Mundus and giving it Lorkhan's divinity.

After these two acts, which is commonly called the Convention, the gods left the earth.


The powers also created Red Tower and the First Stone. This allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine. In this way, the powers of Ada-mantia granted the Mundus a special kind of divinity, which is called NIRN, the consequence of variable fate.

Because the Tower that stabilized Mundus without the presence of Akatosh was down, so the only way to preserve Mundus would be for Akatosh to return, as he had in the Dawn.


What do you mean by "past" the birth right of Dagon, "takes precedence over"? Alessia's Covenant with Akatosh/Shezarr supersedes the right of Dagon to Mundus, as long as a http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-trials-st-alessia. By the time Martin has his chance to light the Fires, it's too late to, because Dagon's there. Instead, Aka reveals himself, as he had at Convention, reinforcing the barriers in the presence of divinity.


Edit: To sum what we see at the end of Oblivion - Martin mantling Akatosh - Mundus reverts to its last level of protection, against a fusion with Oblivion, and that's Ada-mantia Tower, or Convention.

Neither "The Tower of White-Gold, whose Stone is Chim-el Adabal, Amulet of Kings, whose masters are returning. I speak of course of the Ayleids, for which "sometimes" was not good enough." nor "the Ayleids harvested castaway creatia from Oblivion by entering a pact with the masters of the Void, the Princes of Misrule." asserts that The Amulet was created by the Ayleid, from creatia harvested with the authority of the Daedra.

To be specific, the first notes the Amulet of King was made by the Ayleid, the second notes that the Ayleid harvested creatia but neither states what the Amulet was made of.



Yes, but why does it not belong here? Is there something specific about the creatia harvested from Obivion that sets it apart from other creatia? I'm asking this because it seems you argue that the creatia in Mundus is the stolen kalpas that Dagon has to destroy.



So what you are trying to say is: Martin brought back Akatosh and thus the world resembled the time of the convention. I'd say we're short one champion and a heartless god.

As far as resemblances to mythic events go, you might consider this another chapter to the Aldudagga where Dagon is kicked out of Mundus yet again.



The Red Tower has been down for a while but that did not bring Akatosh about or the end of Mundus. Even without White-Gold there are other towers still.



Let me rephrase that: How are the souls of past Emperors the birth right of Dagon to Mudus?

edit:

Otherwise: nice thinking but I don't think that's it.

I'll think about it some more then... or let it rest.


Edit: (You asked a lot, so I should reply with a little more)

Yes! Exactly right, that's what's on the tip of my tongue. Isn't short one champion and a heartless god another way of saying the same thing?


Kalpa refuse? The recycled skins of old worlds? Yes, and the treaty recognized the creatia belonged to Dagon (or the Princes in general, the Intercept implied they all had a hand in the Crisis). I saw the Invasion from Mankar's point of view, where Dagon is Nirn's liberator, not her killer.

How so? The CoC is Shezzarine. He fills every role of a previous Shezzarine except having no heart.

The champion is Shezarrine, who is the heart of the god.

And this thing I have thought of, I have named it, and I call it freedom. Which I think is just another word for Shezarr Who Goes Missing...

Strangely, it appears that Pelinal is present at Alessia's deathbed, although he was killed by Umaril earlier in the saga (years before Alessia's death)...

... and left you to gather sinew with my other half, who will bring light thereby to that mortal idea that brings [the Gods] great joy, that is, freedom, which even the Heavens do not truly know, [which is] why our Father, the... [Text lost]... in those first [days/spirits/swirls] before Convention... that which we echoed in our earthly madness. [Let us] now take you Up. We will [show] our true faces... [which eat] one another in amnesia each Age.
( space-god abduction! )

Did Akatosh put Alessia into the Amulet, or did Shezarr?

There are conflicting accounts in the lore. And it seems that TIL changed its timeline to reflect this.

Believe it or not, this was intentional. The internal TES timeline still has Shezarr at the apotheosis, even though OBL's book "Amulet of Kings" would seem to indicate otherwise.

To that, I would pose the same question that The Arcturian Heresy posed. Who's soul inhabited the Mantella? Was it Ysmir? Zurin Arctus? Tiber Septim? I would go on to ask why not all of them at different times? When the CoC mantles the path of Pelinal to the point that he/she completes the path that not even he could walk, I would say that the identity of Shor changed as well.

Starting with Akatosh at Convention and leading to the events of the Oblivion Crisis and beyond into the Auroran invasion, Akatosh and his fragmentary identities must have done quite the bit of changing. And as good 'ol Wulf says, it's never pretty.

I've actually been trying to make a solid flow chart of Akatosh's schizophrenia including the absence of Lorkhan to the first incarnation of Shor on Nirn to Pelinal, Wulfharth and further branches from Pelinal to the CoC and Wulfharth to Ysmir and the branches to Tiber Septim and Zurin Arctus.

How could one even compare the CoC to Shor when even though they are one in the same, Shor's birth on Nirn is directly related to and absence of Lorkhan in Aetherius and the fracturing of Akatosh's mind? Who would doubt that Akatosh and Lorkhan are the same? Therefore how can we avoid relating every Shezzarine back to Lorkhan and eventually Akatosh?

I'm sure though, that even Akatosh's personality doesn't have infinite plasticity, quite the opposite I'd think given that the Marukhati Selectives snapped him in half Vaudeville-style. So at what point does a piece of Akatosh become so different that it ceases to be Akatosh at all? That is how many times does the mantle have to be passed, how many incarnates must there be whose mantles are also passed before the bits of the originals become diluted with the new. After all, the path of mantling requires the old to give up something of himself to resemble the new.

Just as Tiber Septim changed in personality and probably physical form throughout his reign, I'd say Pelinal did the same. Who's to say that time flows one way only? The CoC became the new Shezzarine, sending Pelinal back up to fill Lorkhan's role, and since I haven't yet read anything saying that reverse temporal engineering isn't possible in TES, I'd guess that it happened with Pelinal, changing as a result of the destruction of the chim el adabal and the defeat of Umaril.

So am I right when I say, you believe Akatosh is learning not to fight back?


Zero Sum with the Moth Priests?

How is it possible to distinguish apathy from nihilism from inhibition when speaking of a Time god with schizophrenia. Honestly, Akatosh's condition reminds me of the Plinko game from The Price is Right.


It could come to that, but you'd have to water down the proverbial orange juice down quite a bit for that to happen. I'd guess that if there was ever the chance of it happening, the Jills would fix it all or Alduin would swallow the world and regurgitate it back to the Merethic.

Is it possible to distinguish those? I don't know, I ask as Vivec had, is the Aurbis learning?

Vivec pondered on the madness of Aka, in Sermon 18. His conclusion became the inspiration for the Book of Hours', Perhaps [Lorkhan] failed, so you may know how not to.


From another source, it's said Lorkhan is the Spirit of Nirn - the divinity NIRN - and god of mortals. He will learn, as mortals learn; and as he learns, so will his aurbilical twin, Akatosh.

Maybe this is the OP's answer? The Champion was the symbol of 'Old Tamriel', in Mankar's own words. Mankar's own paradise failed, because his hatred of 'old, decadent Tamriel' made him oblivious of the paradise that is Tamriel. As Martin learned to love the CoC, so Akatosh learned to love the CoC; and as they loved the Champion, so they loved Tamriel. Oblivion was forever thwarted, by Akatosh's sacrificial love. He did this, because Martin loved the CoC. This returns to proweler's post. We're short one champion and a heartless god.


No no, I mean you're like a Moth Priest, charting his schizophrenia.

Yes, I'd agree with Vivec there. He seems like the spiritual middle ground between the Aldmeri and Nord viewpoints.


This sounds more like a traditional Godhead; a collective unconsciousness. Makes sense though.


Hopefully I won't evaporate when I finish the chart.

Also, is this why the Elder Scrolls continue to change and contradict the past? Because the changing stems from Akatosh's own changing? I've never thought of it like that.

I believe so. I hadn't given this thought, until your response to proweler's post. The rest of MK's quote:

It is a baby universe with doom already marked on its head, because it cannot really exist, it has no real mother, and it doesn't understand how to get out, or why it might, or if it should because the rest of the void is a horrible thought filled with nothing.

Sounds like some sort of chicken and the egg existence paradox. Is he referring to the Aurbis? I'm guessing he is, and since there was no creator, it can't exist. What of the next part of that quote though, about trying to get out and know why it should try?

I'd interpret the Aurbis as the body and Godhead as the brain with the two working in discordance, neither knowing each others' relation to the other one. It's like if I was having a dream and watching someone go about their in the 3'rd person, but in reality, the person I was watching was myself, and the dream isn't actually a dream, and other forces had hijacked my body, leaving me to watch as a casual observer. If both the mind and body both realized their own identities and one could identity could rise into full control without destroying either of the two individuals, the universe would exist peacefully.

If for a second we could entertain that the above isn't just a bunch of hogwash, I'd argue that the unifying force would be CHIM, as in a single person taking charge of things, willing to become everything but still retain a singular identity and not deny the identities of others. It'd be like a totally screwed up game with screwed up rules that were constantly being rewritten by those in charge, and the mods kept modding but not doing a good job because they all lost interest, and suddenly a lowly player hacks the system but doesn't abuse the power and just subtly sets everything straight leaving the game (Aurbis) intact but orderly and the mods (Godhead: Akatosh/Lorkhan, Daedra, Magnus, and all the other et'ada) in power but now with a much easier job.

I bet the OP has long since died in a puddle of his own confusion (or maybe that's just me)

Which can mean only one thing: this topic's crossed into awesome! A division of the Godhead into halves: one to be aware his body's being mauled, and the other to watch 'another' being mauled.


I don't have time for the sources at hand, but - and this is when we can start talking, in detail, about everything - but the lobotomy was made with Ur Tower; his sleek ship was the surgeon's knife. Aka is the Ethereal half, who is sundered from the pain of the Physical world, dreaming instead. Lorkhan is aware of the sundering, because he is the body's physical intelligence ( the Heart ) and he's desperate to transcend the torture.


Edit: Pelinal knows the feeling pretty well.

Also, the symbol of the Head is Magnus; the symbol of the Body is the Cloven Duality.

How would they harvest Creatia from Oblivion using White Gold Tower without already having a stone?

They made the treaty, and the token of their agreement was the Amulet.

While the Ayleids are said to be the original masters of the Amulet of Kings, and that they made Daedric pacts to harvest Creatia, I don't know of anything actually saying that the Amulet was that result of their pacts with the Daedra.

If I was aware of a source saying where the Amulet came from, I wouldn't need to concoct a theory to do the same. You also doubt they could harvest creatia, without the Amulet. I don't see why the gem of compromise, between Akatosh and Man, wouldn't have first been the gem of compromise, between the Daedra and Ayleids.

The interesting thing about this, is that the disorder of Sithis being made orderly by the Convention only resulted in the disorder of Akatosh. Truly order cannot be created from nothing. It can only be moved from one place to another. Akatosh gave up his sanity to bring temporal order to Mundus. Now all the original chaos just infested his own mind, and also interestingly, Sheogorath, the Sithis Shaped Hole/The Serpent/Alduin came about as a result as well.

But why was Pelinal's armor and weapons bearing the image of the Amulet? His armor is connected to the Eight, and it's the oldest known incident of something bearing the image of the Amulet.

I personally theorize that the Ayleids made a similar pact with Akatosh to get the Amulet. And then they broke it to make deals with the Daedra. And as a result the stone passed to the Nedes. Either that or the Nedes simply got their hands on it during their rebellion (since it didn't need to be inside White-Gold Tower).

was arrayed in armor [from the future time]

The pact with Aka and Man makes sense, because Auri-el had been anti-Man, so there had to be a compromise. The Heartland High Elves were already children of Auri-el, so they wouldn't need a pact.

Whatever. It's origin's lost, and Martin's replaced it.