Hey all,

I played through Oblivion recently to prepare for Skyrim.

What I still can't figure out is that from the very start of the game, it's made abundantly clear that Mehrunes Dagon and other Daedra are no longer held back by the barriers between Oblivion and Mundus (Tamriel) because the Dragonfires have been extinguished with the loss of the emperor, and that an heir to the throne wearing the Amulet of Kings is the only way to relight the Dragonfires which prevent the Daedra from creating long-lasting portals to the realm.

And yet, when the main quest is complete, there are no dragonfires, there is no Emperor, and there is no Amulet....

How exactly does Martin seal these barriers shut permanently?

I realize that his blood (the blood of an emperor) combined with the the Amulet (the blood of Akatosh) and that's how he was able to take on the form of Akatosh and defeat Mehrunes Dagon, but isn't that more or less just sending Mehrunes back to his realm? And what about other Daedric princes, what holds them back?

Thanks,
Dan O.

I think it was because of Martin's sacrifice, the Amulet being destroy and transformation of Akatosh.

T

Yeah, I remember that quote, but it seems a little vague...

I can understand how mixing the blood of the last Emperor and a Divine, taking on the form of Akatosh was able to defeat Mehrunes Dagon and close shut the gates to Oblivion that were currently all over Cyrodiil. But...

How does this prevent new gates from forming?

Even if Mehrunes Dagon is permanently cast back (again, "How?"), what prevents other Daedric Princes from interfering with the mortal realm by creating similar portals from their realms of Oblivion?

I was under the impression throughout the entire main quest that the dragonfires created a barrier between Oblivion in-general and Tamriel, not Mehrune Dagon's Oblivion Realm specifically.

In Morrowind daedra were able to cross this barrier but the portals between the realms were only temporary in existence, and could not allow for such a large-scale invasion. The dragonfires were what made this so.

In such a lore-heavy and lore-centric game, it just left me feeling a little bit like the ending to the main quest was simply glossed over, the details omitted for reasons unspecified. It didn't really feel like it did the game justice.

I've always been under the impression that the Oblivion invasion was exclusive to Mehrunes Dagon and his Deadlands. Otherwise, as you said, why wouldn't all of the Daedric Princes invade? I know not all of the Daedric Princes would be particularly concerned with Mundus, but certainly many of them would want to take advantage of the situation. It also would explain why Dagon had so many of the other Prince's lesser daedra in his service, such as Molag Bal's Daedroth, Mephala's Spider Daedra, etc., the other Princes were lending Dagon their daedra to aid him, rather than invading themselves, because they couldn't.

The Avatar of Akatosh "killed" Dagon in Mundus, thus banishing him back to Oblivion and preventing him from returning.

I wouldn't read too much into the lesser daedra in the employ of Dagon. The Lesser Daedra are also immortal and are also individuals and every bit as sentient/sapient as humans and mer so a few of them in the dead lands doesn't necessarily mean they were told to go there by their respective princes. In Battlespire (I know older game and maybe not entirely consistent with present lore) you had Dark Seducers working for Nocturna.

I'm confident that Sheo didn't tell those Mazken to work for Nocturna.

Meridia took advantage and sent her Aurorans and Umaril to Mundus.

My view on that is that there were a number of Princes who gave material or tacit support for his endeavor but didn't want to directly get involved. The most that they did was to help prevent the Princes opposed to Dagon's campaign from undermining it. But that lives off my theory that the Court of Oblivion is a dangerous one and there is no act you can accomplish outside of trivial trifles without support from an ally.

Given the nature of the Princes I'm sure there is a lot of intriguing political sparring between the daedra lords. I just don't think that Mehrunes would need much in the way of political support to invade Nirn. If anything I can see the other princes willing him on, just so that they can enjoy observing the spectacle of full on conflict between two realms.

Of all the princes, Dagon by his sphere would be most concerned with dominating or destroying Nirn, even without adding his very ancient connection with the planet.

Isn't it a tower thing?

Before Morrowind, and the fall of Red Tower (Red Mountain/The heart of Lorkhan), a breif lapse in White-Gold Tower (White-Tower/Amulet of Kings) wasn't a big deal. Since the Nerevearine freed the Heart of Lorkhan, when White-Gold came offline with the death of Uriel Septim, Dagon was able to open gates. Mundus was to weak.

At the end of Oblivion, rather than reactivating White-Gold, he replaced it (sort of? I'm not 100% on Towers) by fusing with it's Stone, as a sort of permenant-dragonfire, therefore keeping White-Gold Stable and active. Sure, a bunch of Dagonites with hammers could probbably take it out again, but given the importance of the monument, would anyone really be allowed that close to it?

The statue is (probably) just a monument to Akatosh's brief manifestation. It's a symbol of his commitment to the Barriers, yes, but there's more than a tower keeping Oblivion out now.


And if while he is marching on Mundus, the collected forces of the other princes come marching in and steal most of his realm away? Or engage his armies in defense of Mundus? Or the next time he needs a favor, they refuse him. You need someone to keep them occupied and divided.

Thats what I kinda thought too, since Dagons realm was exclusive to Oblivion, but since "all" of Oblivion is sealed forever, how was Sheogorath able to open his realm? (If it fits to the lore)

Haskill explains when you first enter. The gate is an invitation and poses no threat to Mundus. No Daedra exit into Mundus, mortals are free to come and go as they please.

Basically, things are back to the way they were. The end of TES4 didn't cause Oblivion to be completely cut off from Mundus, it just put things back to the way they were. Daedra can still enter if invited and Princes can still be summoned.

If I might inject some Joe Campbell: The Imperial City is the umbilicus of Nirn, the point were the self-annihilate hero ascends and the god descends. By sacrificing himself, Martin empowers Aka to reenter the world and hold it fast against all foes. The covenant between man and god is no longer necessary because man is god.

So as this thread so far has demonstrated, that particular issue hasn't been completely hashed out yet by the forum, though I think that is more because of a lack of information then anything.




Though something along the lines of this holds water in my opinion. If we are lucky we might get a little lore love on the issue in the next game since I think the awakening of Alduin is directly related to and dependent on the sequence of events at the end of Oblivion's MQ.

I always thought that when Akatosh sent Dagon back to the Deadlands, that Tamriel was only protected from an invasion by Dagon for a while. I thought that any of the other Daedra could attack, because the Amulet was shattered, thus breaking the covenant between Akatosh and Alessia, which would lead to the reason why Akatosh (Alduin) would attack in Skyrim. That was what my impression was.

I also was thinking: what if Dagon invades again. I mean, I know he's only temporarily banished, so couldn't he return again and repeat the whole process? Sorry for that off-topicness.

No. The statue of Akatosh created a permanent barrier between Mundus and Oblivion.

I think that's debatable.
I haven't looked into it much, though.

May I request a citation for this?

I forget whether it was the statue of Akatosh or not (I shouldn't have said that), but Martin said the barriers are restored and the dragonfires are no longer needed.

Now that I think about it, I have no idea where I got that the Akatosh statue does the work. Ignore me.

What is interesting about the ending is that if the barriers are restored, then what the heck is holding them together? There is no more Amulet of Kings and no more Septim line so the pillars of the previous status quo are all gone. Now we are left to wonder what is holding these barriers together, if anything at all.

I hope Skyrim will expand upon it, if only in in-game books.

It's about 90% fanterpretation, but it makes a lot of sense given the story they were trying to tell.

The Amulet was created by the Ayleid, from creatia harvested with the authority of the Daedra - creatia which belonged to Oblivion and spread through the World by the symbolic structure of White Gold. This is just a hunch, but when Martin broke the Amulet without lighting the covenant fires, he may have broken an Ayleid-Daedra covenant, which superseded the Alessian when no Emperor is crowned. Perhaps the Amulet of the Ayleids was Dagon's "birthright" to Mundus, and breaking the vessel of their oath robbed Oblivion's Princes their legitimacy. In Martin's mantling of Akatosh at Ur Tower, the ordering of the Aurbis reverts to Convention.

That sounds solid (apparently I need to read up on the history of the Amulet) but I think to say Martin mantled Akatosh might be going a step to far. What Akatosh was doing and why is more up in the air and will hopefully be resolved with a bit of lore in the future.

Red Tower was down, and the barriers dissolved, so Aka must have been present on Mundus, as he was in the Mythic; and it's at this point, echoing Convention became Martin's only way to restore the Convention's ordering of the Aurbis. The Amulet contained an oversoul of Emperors, all the way back to Alessia, Mother of Akatosh and Shezarr, which he released, simultaneously cutting Dagon and the Princes from their birthright to Mundus. Martin certainly re-ordered the Aurbis.

Mmmh. Some questions. Bring quotes.



Where did you get that from?



Saying that it belongs implies that it should not be here. I haven't seen that anywhere else.



I think that is a strange conclusion to reach. What even is a Convention ordering of the Aurbis?



Why?



How are the souls of Emperors past the birth right of Dagon to Mudus?