Hmm... well their silence doesn't mean spears aren't in, but I think its possible they are still trying to work them in. Perhaps they are having issues bringing the same visceral feel of combat to spears as they have to the other weapons, or perhaps they have been struggling with how the player fights an opponent with a spear. Could be other issues as well, but based on what we've seen, there isn't any reason to think they aren't in yet.

Personally, I think if they have halberds(as shown in the concept art) they'll have spears, but then they aren't exactly the same, and just because there is concept art doesn't mean its making it into the game.

Although I agree spears would be good for slaying dragons due to their reach, I can't actually think of any major fantasy story involving dragon slaying where the dragon was killed by a spear, off hand.

I do hope to see spears regardless, though, not simply for dragon slaying, but just because it would make sense to have them, but the fact that Bethesda has not said anything on the issue doesn't make me optimistic, considering how many players complained about spears not being in Oblivion, if they were to be in Skyrim, I think Bethesda would have told us.



Considering that many players actually DIDN'T use spears in Morrowind and that's probably why Bethesda removed them, I'd say no, it has nothing to do with them being abusable, in fact, I'd say spears were underpowered in Morrowind, fewer options as a whole compared to other weapon classes, generally less powerful, and with very few good artifacts in the skill. I can say I, at least don't want them because they were abusable. In fact, if spears are done right, I'd say they would NOT be abusable. They would have certain advantages over other weapons, certaintly, namely a long reach, but would suffer other disadvantages as well. It simply doesn't make sense to not have spears in a game modeled after Medieval Europe, considering how extensively they were used throughout history, and spears or similar weapons were in the middle ages too. Plus, removing the spear skill removed one weapon option for players, I wouldn't have objected so much if Bethesda had done away with spears as a skill, but merged them into another class like they did with axes, but since they didn't do that, we were just left with fewer options in what kinds of weapons we could use.



It looks like the trend is continuing to me, sure, we might not get fewer weapon skills in Skyrim than in Oblivion, but that just means it's other skills that get axed instead, since there's still fewer skills. So the trend is not so much that we're getting fewer weapon skills with each game as that we're getting fewer skills as a whole, Bethesda probably just felt that certain weapon skills were good candidates to join the list of dropped skills. One can hardly deny that the series has been having fewer skills with each game, and this isn't a new trend either, Morrowind dropped a lot of skills from Daggerfall as well.

Now, the trend, in itself, doesn't necessarily bother me, because I judge any RPG system by how it actually works in game, not the amount of skills it offers, having more skills doesn't guarentee your character system will be more complex, much less "deeper", and it most certainly doesn't guarentee it's better. If half the skills are worthless or just redundant, then they can go, or if you don't want to remove them, you can find a way to make them worth having around, but that can be harder to do, and having more skills makes the system harder to balance. As much as I like Morrowind, I won't deny that some of its skills were very poorly balanced, making them either overpowered compared to others or worthless. Certainly, removing skills from a game can prove to be detrimental to the game, I'd say some of the skills that were removed from Oblivion really should not have been removed, but mostly, I'm not talking about things like the combination of axes and blunt weapons or short blades and long blades, because that just meant that some weapons had to be merged into other skills, I can live with that, and if the developers decide that the game should have less skills than the last one, than the skills that can be merged with other skills should be the first targets for removal, after skills which were simply useless and redundant and CAN'T be improved upon easily (So spears don't count because them being less useful than other weapons is due to being poorly implemented, not because spears aren't good weapons themselves.) what bothered me was skills like enchanting, spear, and unarmored (Especially unarmored.) as those actually resulted in the loss of options for the player, and giving the players as many choices as possible without unbalancing the game or making the choices seem meaningless is what designers should focus on when choosing the skill list for a game. So, what do I think of Skyrim's 18 skills? I don't know yet, I'll have to see how the new skill list affects the game first.

http://carteretchurch.com/images/Tableau_StGeorge.gif http://stgeorgefairbanks.anglicanwest.org/images/Stgeorge-dragon.jpg http://havecoffeewiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/go-st-george2.jpg http://peregrinetale.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/st-george1.jpg http://stgeorgesos.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/st-george-dragon.jpg George

Bonus: Mounted.

They were definitely not underpowered in Morrowind. They were heavily abused because when you backpedaled you could poke people to death while keeping them at a safe distance from you or you could levitate and poke people to death while still being too far for someone to attack you. It was things like that which made them heavily abusable. They were removed with the other things that were removed from Morrowind because it was like them, it was broken and needed to be reworked before they put it back in the game.

considering how backwards Oblivion's animation system was, i'm 90% positive that this is the exact reason why they weren't in Oblivion. Skyrim's using a completely different system, though, so it may or may not be easier to add a new animation set.

until there's solid confirmation, it's probably safer to assume that no, there are no spears.



the differences between the skills required to fire a rifle and to fire a handheld minigun are far too numerous for me to list without slipping into a wall of text, but the entire reason for this compression is because the Big Guns skill was always completely useless at lower levels because you never found any Big Guns until later in the game, so there was no reason to tag it ever. it had nothing to do with "realism getting in the way".

that said, i'm happy they've compressed blade/blunt into one-handed and two-handed because it makes a hell of a lot more sense this way.

Um thats not a halberd thats a 2 handed axe. A halberd would have a spike on top and a spike counterbalancing the blade.

That is the problem of having it based solely on skill for each weapon type, as each weapon type may fall in between the skills.
Halberd - Axe or Polearm?
Falchion - Axe or Sword?
Naginata - Sword or spear (or polearm)?

If kept strictly to one handed, two handed, and missile/throw, you allow endless possibilities as long as the weapons attributes are significant enough. As for animations and "fighting style", three basic ones that fall under normal weapons; Cut (Slash), Blunt (Crush), and Puncture (Stab) depending on the move you do. Some weapons may be allowed to change from two handed operation to one handed operation like a spear, and then into a throw operation like a javelin. A staff may have unique fighting styles that does blunt, locks, and throws instead. Some ideas I had for "weapon statistics" that works well for this three skill approach:

* Cut (Slash). Damage value heavily determined by condition of weapon and own endurance/agility. Cuts against armor will weaken it quickly.
* Blunt (Crush). Damage value heavily determined by weight of weapon and own strenght/endurance. Not affected by weapon condition.
* Puncture (Stab). Damage value determined by condition of weapon and own speed/agility. Reduce enemy armor before attempting a stab.
* Durability. How quickly condition deterioates. Heavily determined by skill, material and usage.
* Condition. Current condition of weapon in three parts: Damage (corrosion) / Condition (sharpness, wear and tear) / Temporal (by magic).
* Weight. Weight of the weapon have great impact on blunt (crush), and governed very much by material. Also affects speed, agility, and fatigue.
* Reach. Reach of weapon in two parts, one handed and two handed (a polearm has longer reach when used with both hands, sword vice versa).
* Is Missile Weapon – Boolean value that makes some attributes work in a different way, suitable for these weapons.
* Is Dual Operation – Boolean value that enables one and two handed operation of same weapon, or switch polearm into missile.
* Is Dual Wield – Boolean value that determines if weapon can be dual wield.
* Enchantability – How much magic you can store in a weapon, typically governed by material and weight, except for uniques.
* Shield – Can you use a shield with this weapon? May update automatically according to one or two handed use of a weapon (polearms).
* Deflect – How easy it is to deflect incoming attack, less effective against heavier weapons, but when effective causes fatigue drain on target.
* Parry / Trap – How easy it is to parry an attack, near impossible against heavier weapons, but when effective can cause knockback on target.
* Backtrack – How fast can you backtrack with this weapon, heavy weapons and bows are very slow.
* Sidestep – How fast can you sidestep with this weapon, avoiding hit alltogether, heavy weapons and bows are very slow.
* Combat Roll – Unique for Hand to Hand combat, unless we get Martial Arts skill.
* Combat Throw – Unique for Hand to Hand combat and some polearms.

Examples of use:
* A longsword, mace, and dagger have different values for cut, blunt, and puncture values. A longsword and a mace may have different capbilities and disabilities (high cut & puncture vs high blunt), whereas a falchion may be a better allrounder (medium on all).
* A longsword may be used as a two handed weapon, a dagger may not, and for maces it may depend on the mace. When operated in two hands, output damage is increased at the expence of increased stamina drain and reduced reach. For a typical polearm, the oposite is true; for balance you need to hold in the middle when used with a shield limiting your reach, or change to two handed to increase the reach.
* Is Missile Weapon may change from false to true when you change its operation from two handed use to one handed use, depending on weight. A longsword is forced to false. A spear may be used as a javelin when in one handed mode. A dagger becomes throwable if not dual wield. A throwing knife and shuriken defaults to true but can be used for unconventional purposes. A bola and net will be forced to a missile weapon with entrapment capabilities. A bow and crossbow is forced to a missile weapon with unique reach values.
* Deflect is typically what you'd want to use against a heavy weapon like a 50 kg (100 lbs) deadric battle axe. You don't lift your sword and block/parry this – it's a grand fail, you deflect the blow. Opponent will hit the ground and spend considerable strenght to get back into an attack position spending lots of fatigue in the process. If an opponent comes at you with a shortsword, a deflect serves less purpose and a parry/trap may suit better. A successful parry have the chance of knocking back the opponent, outright knocking him down (simulating a trap), or with good enough skill even disarm him in some cases.

they better have brought spears back... alot of people loved them, and they were a great weapon!

also, it just wouldnt look right hunting mammoths without a spear...

spears/halberds/poleaxes/etc... would be really nice to have back.

Ok, a Halberd doesn't need a spike on the end, but you are right, that is certainly more an axe than an halberd.

Actually I just realized something. WIth the recent new info from the dutch magazine, that concept art is probably for the player characters executioner. Also, not only does this mean its for a unique character most likely, it also means that weapon is not meant to be used as polearm at all, its just an executioners axe, and axe with a really long handle. In combat, with either the executioner or the player, you'd probably swing it closer to the blade than from the end, and there certainly wouldn't be any thrusting done with it like you would expect from a spear or halberd.

It's a good thing Morrowind didn't feature any sort of weapon that would lob projectiles from a distance. Allowing you to safely strike an enemy from across a field? Exploitive, plain and simple.

This.

but..., that is the price for the demands of the more mainstream gamer, who wants better graphics, great snow effects, finishing moves etc. I believe like in any workplace, it's about priorities. I would rather have more RPG stuff, I really couldn't care less about finishing moves. If I want that I'll play street fighter etc.

If there are no spears....how will that argonian maid polish mine?

I want a halberd. :whistling:

But what exactly does the "mainstream gamer" gain from it if skills are removed? I'm sure that even these 'mainstream' gamers want variation. I mean, doesn't everyone like variation?
And if they wanted, they could freely use just the weapon skills and play it as a hack-and-slash game. But even if Bethesda wants to cater to a larger audience, it doesn't mean that they can't simultaneously please the old 'hardcoe' fanbase.
Remember to add options, Bethesda. Options are never a bad thing, regardless of the game's target audience.

I read that as Xbox

The GI article said they removed skills as opposed to adding them- namely mysticism. Now there are less skills than there were in Oblivion. As much as I want spears (like an evangelical wants the apocalypse) I dont see it happening unless they put spears under a preexisting skill. But what skill would it be? Not blunt weapons, not longswords... >.<

actually its more realistic than the morrowind way... a claymore user would certainly not be useless with a dagger.

Its a fair system and fair to merge blade into one. Im a martial artist and practise with various weapons... using one weapon does indeed help you use different ones. Its knowledge of body movement which is important... which is largely irrelevant to the weapon you are holding. Tecniques from a long sword are easily transposed into a dagger.

although a seperate spear/blade skill would be a must.

I see no reason why in the last four or five years, that they couldn't have balanced spears and allowed them back in. With backpedaling gone, the exploit went with it, and even if they had levitation, there will be other ways to abuse that. I'll recover if they're not in, but I'd like it just the same, for the sake of variety. Oh, and there is always the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ygRholyh5g&feature=related to think about.

maybe they havent decided whether to implement them or not. hopefully its in :wink_smile:

as do i, Bethesda needs to put in pole-arms, people would be very happy with them

I think they maybe out due to there length and clipping with your surroundings if they are in the will have to be held funny to not go off screen or get skequed perspective when close to enemys, if they are in they with probably just be spear textured claymores which I wouldn't like, I'm not sure what's stopping cross bows.

Clipping is not an issue, first: programming aspect, second: even if it's not the spear, even a dagger can clip left and right everywhere, three: your horse will bound to get stuck 80% of the time.

Um I think it is, why people alway jump to the can't be bothered argument, yeah the game designer thought this is 5 years of my lifes wrk let's make it ad crap as possible, back on topic, holding a spear and moving through caves doors ect in third person it be stuck in the frame n roof maybe they didn't think the animation space was worth it, in first person if the spear is held point outwards how do you over come the FP problem of the spear looking off(perspective wise) when striking an enemy that isn't farenough away. Maybe they just didn't like what was the basic for them and felt redesigning would take to much from the game and they would rather give the disc space over to more horse armour...maybe they just don't listen to people that call them lazy and bag on them when they dontget there way, I'd rather find games I like that the designers lovedto make because they will be art the for pressure put on the design team to produce a product over art will take alot away from the project.

No way jose. Especialy in medieval times swords were very costly to produce, as was armor. Peasant armies/infantry were commonly armed with lots more spears/axes etc than swords. Leaving spears out makes little sense to me, sure there can be some technical issues but I really can't imagine them being unsolvable.