DRM in general as far as I am concerned are rootkits and I don't want them on my computer at all.

Looking at my 15 years old game boxes, one is proudly standing out and I'm never gonna get rid of it!:

http://karamail.nerim.net/elys/temp/My_Daggerfall_French_Box.jpg

...anothe reason why I love boxes :wub:

Agreed. Especially for highly anticipated titles like Skyrim. I'll gladly use Steam for the occasional $15-20 game that's been out for awhile, but otherwise I like having the box.

I think Steam, in this case, is a bit of a gyp. You're paying the same price but not getting a nifty map. If the Steam download was $50 then it would make sense, but meh.

Things work this way:

- you install the game on day one: the Steam client checks for a new version of the game [which on day one is supposed to be the same as the version on the disc], it copies the data from the dvd to the hdd, it downloads the data needed to decrypt the files and activates the game
- you install the game after an update has been released: Steam downloads the updated files, it copies the remaining data from the disc, then it downloads the data needed to decrypt the files and it activates the game

Basically what the Steam client does is checking for new versions of the game files before installing the game. This is why people who have bought The Witcher 2 after the huge patch has been released had to download a whopping 9Gb patch before being able to play the game: you're forced to always install the latest version of the game, and there's no real file patching involved during the update, the client just downloads the full updated files [The Witcher 2 relies on huge compressed data files similar to Beth's BSAs]. Hence the more you'll wait to buy the game, the more you'll have to download before being able to play it because of the updates, which you can't disable before having installed the game. It's not really Valve's fault [they are actually working on a real patching system to fix this issue], as they're just forwarding to the users what the publishers have made available to Valve.

However this shouldn't be an issue with Skyrim if the Beth folks keep the habit to provide small loose files just as they did with Oblivion [remember the TerrainNoise.dds file which came with the 1.2 patch?]. They really don't expect users to download entire BSAs, do they?

Then you're in for a rough time ahead. Online DRM is quickly becoming the norm. Be glad Skyrim isn't using Assassin's Creed's "always connected" DRM. Despite being a single-player game, it simply can't be played if you're not connected to the internet. If you're in the middle of a game and you lose your connection the game will pause until it comes back.

One big benifit to Bethesda making the game moddable on the PC, is they can release a patch that works like a mod. They replace the ESM(s), and add whatever graphics files that are needed. So, updates are usually in the few MB size, not even that bad on dial up.

It's the DLC's that get big.

I agree whole heatedly, I utterly despise steam and only use it when absolutely necessary, i.e online multiplayer games. It saddens me that so many game companies are going with this online drm style, especially for single player games, but then again I completely understand why they are doing it, it's just a shame that in the end, it only hinders the paying customer and really doesn't inhibit hackers and pirates in the least bit. Hackers manage to get there hands on the game generally before the game is open for public use, and have always managed to avoid drm, and in some cases circumvent the will of the developer entirely ( see mw2 and the hacked dedi servers).

On that topic, I believe companies are loosing a lot of potential sales by ruthlessly enforcing this kind of drm on people. There have probably only been a grand total of ~7 games that I have very deliberately followed the development of and proceeded to buy without question. The other 50+ games that I own ( read: bought ) I have stumbled across at lans or been given a copy of to try by a mate. In fact that's how I came across the wonderful world of ES, a friend lent me his copy and the day after I went out and bought MW + Tribubal/Bloodmoon and that was what (9?) years ago. Had there been some pos online drm that locked the game to him I may or may not even know what MW is these days. It has been the same for just about every other game I own and the same pattern applies to a lot of my friends.

If it were acceptable I would consider obtaining the game through other means and sending Beth the $60 just so I didn't have to use steam, but I'm a svcker for the box and the swag within and I will be following the same ritual I have for every other ES game. Install the game after ooo-ing and ahh-ing at the contents and read the manual while the game installs to pump me up even more/ read up about the skill/perks/races. I would also rather have my money go through a brick and mortar store then through steam's grubby mitts anyway.

To those who are / have complained about swapping to DD from physical media because of loosing or scratched disks, have you not heard of ISO's? Every physical game I own make an Iso of on a spare drive with the cd-key in a notepad doc, that way if anything should happen, I have my own backup. This is all steam is essentially but I have never had to be online or have anyone check or give me permission to play my own damm games. That is truly the best of both worlds, I get the swag and a backup without having some program I didn't want nor asked for shoved down my throat.
/endrant

(Note: I neither condone nor use pirated games, every game I own I have purchased.)
( Edit: Sorry If I have crossed some forum bounds with any of the above mentioned material.)

I really hope they do that. Patches through Steam only has me concerned. I don't want to be forced to patch and then the patch happens to ruin my entire install. If they install as a mod, it should be as simple and deactivating it, if it happened to muck anything up so I wouldn't need to reinstall.

I buy about 95% of all my PC games online (mostly through Steam, some through GOG, and up until a couple of years ago used to use Stardock too).

But there are SOME titles that I just want to be able to see on my shelves - even if the physical copy itself is entirely redundant. Oblivion, Fallout 3 & New Vegas, Civilization IV, Civilization V, and Skyrim are such games.

So for me, I'd say it's purely about having physical copies from series/games I really love[d], and having something to show for it outside of my hard-drive. Functionally pointless, it's just for show!

Also, I don't understand the modern day dislike for Steam. I'm an old-school PC Gamer, and I remember really hating Steam when it first came out, being outraged that I was forced to make an account on this new system and having to be online to play a game, the sheer annoyance when Steam couldn't handle the initial surge of gamers and it crashed preventing people playing a certain big game on release... but these days even my television has a constant net connection, Steam's become a goliath with gigantic amounts of bandwidth (and I've no fears of them suddenly vanishing and taking my games with them, they're not some small company!), and I actually really like the Steam friends-lists and groups etc. and ease with which I can join online games/invite friends to game with me... I think it's a great platform these days, with a prettye asy to use Store, great selection of Indie games, demos available for the vast majority of items, etc.! I'd happily have every PC game I bought be a Steamworks title... plus it's a DRM system I'm content with over other third-party DRM systems (I'm annoyed that EA is going to force me to use a SECOND platform, EA's own newish Steam competitor, just to play BF3 though, grrrr!).

I'm picking up a physical copy, that way I know it will be mine forever. :tes:

And I can stare at/hug/make love to the case when I don't have time to play the game.

Just to make sure everyone's clear:

You all know that you can't play the game without Steam, right? Even if you turn Steam to offline mode, you'll still need the Steam client to launch the game. Even if you bought a physical copy of the game.

As much as I like having a physical copy, I rarely ever look at the manuals and or maps of previous games so I figure it's best to just get it off of Steam. Come 11.11.11. I can relax and have the game installed on Steam and not have to bother with a gas burning vehicle in a search for a store that has the game...

DRMs will not remain the norm for long, the only reason to go with one is as a deterrent for piracy, and it simply doesn't work. The game WILL get cracked, in most cases within 24 hours of release and often BEFORE the official release of the game. Its an ineffective system and the game companies will soon catch on to how much of a waste of money it is.

I don't see that happening, since it's definitely more cost effective than a physical copy. And, even if it doesn't deter piracy, it still stops game sharing.

xbox gamer here, don't play pc games. i know the quality is better, but my computer is crap, even with high speed internet, and i'd rather have a hard copy on my shelf

For my $0.02, I'll get it digital download, probably from Steam. D2D is a few bucks cheaper, but they've had past issues with patching, so I'm leery. As I write, I'm staring at my gorgeous Oblivion box with the map and the coin, neither of which have seen the light of day since the game was first opened, although the DVD has taken quite the beating. Aside from the collector's edition (and I'm *not* into collectibles), I'm not seeing any reason not to do digital download. My only gripe is that digital downloaders, who actually save Bethesda the hassle and expense of making and shipping boxes, media, printed materials and whatnot, aren't getting a significant price break (or anything else for that matter) in exchange for those cost savings. On the other hand, we won't have to wait on the FedEx truck before we can start playing, but that seems a small consolation.

Tell you what, Todd... Have your marketing folks knock $5 or $6 off of the price of the digital download or toss in a freebie DLC (no Horse Armor, please) and I'll be ecstatic. For now, I'm just "meh" on the whole thing because it does seem that us digital folks are getting the short end of the stick for the same price.

I like having the physical copy ,and all the stuff it comes with, especially the map.

Not everyone is you. There are plenty of people with crappy connections, no connections (live in rural areas/etc), and/or with crappy service (low bandwidth limits, etc). They're all thrilled that even the offline games that they used to be able to buy at a store and play in their un-wired sections of the country are now being thrown online.



Not having any use for all this "social networking" crap, I don't really see any of this as a plus. But then, I've always been a bit anti-social that way. I never did any instant messaging back when IM was the big thing, never sent a text, only "chat room" I've ever used is the sidebar at Kongregate, certainly don't have anything to do with Facebook or Myspace. Think it's really obnoxious, all the stuff Blizzard's doing to try to make Battle.net into a Facebook style network where you can chat & message to people playing Starcraft while you're playing WoW... seriously, what's the point?



This, I agree with. Great distribution network. Especially for indie stuff and old games you can't get on disc anymore. As long as it's optional.



Bleh. I can't imagine taking games I currently have on disc, and throwing away any control over them by linking them to my Steam account. For the imaginary bonuses of "don't have to put the DVD in my drive anymore" and "can download it anytime I need to" (if you have a connection, if you aren't over your bandwidth cap, if you're willing to wait hours.....)




No, it stops people who aren't thieves. Interesting that you find this worthy of insulting.


But yeah, DRM isn't the main focus of putting games on Steam.... it's just one more front in the war against used game sales.

One thing I hate with online activation is the forced auto-update. I like to be able to not install an update if I don't like the changes it brings such as balance/gameplay modifcations.

For most games I don't care, I'll get a digital copy. For Skyrim I want that nice shiny box to put on display. Plus I don't know the procedure for modding steam games. I'm sure it's easy enough to do, but I never bothered figuring it out.

You can set games on Steam to not auto-download updates. But with Steamworks games, there's no reason to ever release loose update patches, so the thing that's really hard is going back to a previous patch version.

The community manager confirmed that there will be a pre-load last week. He said "Yes, I believe there will be a pre-load". It's not an absolute statement, but pretty close. It is in his Oct 13th tweets http://twitter.com/#!/DCDeacon

I love to collect things...Definitely buying it...Along with the Strategy Guide...Here's a quick question: Will they have expansions in disc form or will it be solely download for them?

Imagine the bandwidth being used to DL Skyrim from steam ALL AT ONCE at midnight. It's gonna be slow my friends. Even their servers are going to take some sort of hit, even if it's small.

Hence preloads.