The “racist” accusations towards Ulfric and the "racist" accusations towards the Stormcloak faction


Nothing gives me a headache more than debating over this. Before I start, I would like to show you the definition of "racism".

The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

First off, I'd like to say almost everyone in this game is "technically" racist, because they believe certain races are good at certain things, and discriminate against them because of it. Whether that be Nords thinking elves are physically weak, or Imperials thinking Nords are axe swinging barbarians, or Altmer thinking men as a whole are less intellegent. Only thing is, in Tamriel, some of these things are based from truth! But lets assume it is not, and look at the claims of racism to the Stormcloaks.

1. The Stormcloaks don't allow Khajiit in the city.

First of all, the Nords as a whole don't let the caravans in cities because they have a reputation of selling skooma, moonsugar, and thieving. I can't prove that they steal, but anyone can go up to them and see that they sell skooma and moonsugar, and if you listen, they can be heard among themselves complaining about "shakes" from not having any moonsugar. So on top of dealing, they also are users.

2. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!"

All Nords say this battlecry. Even the Nords in the legion. It is a generic cry that can be heard from all nord npc's and should not be taken as racist. Nords as a whole are actually Nationalist and Xenophobic. Meaning they take great pride in their heretical history and background, and they are distrusting of outsiders. Not certain races, but outsiders. Even as a nord, the player can sometimes have a stormcloak in Windhelm say "You better not be an Imperial spy!" Now, some Nords are clearly racist, but this should not be generalised to all. Xenophobia and Nationalism are regulalry mistaken for racism.

3. Stormcloaks hate all elves

This is the easiest to debunk. Firstly, there is a difference between racism and prejudice. If the Stormcloaks truly hated all elves, why are there not one, not two, not three, but four Altmer npcs in the city who are not only not in the grey quarters, but are merchants? One of them says the Dunmer have themselves to blame because they are not willing to do what it takes to gain the nord's respect. Some of the Dunmer are though, as one from house Hlaalu owns a farm, and the other works on the farm and clearly dislikes the complaining his people does ans he refers to his brother saying he'd rather work than to "harp on about injustices" like his brother. Keep in mind that the Dunmer even has Nords in Windhelm working for him! Now, like I said, the Nords do have some racist people like the two in the front when you first walk into Windhelm, and the dock worker who has Argonian workers, but the Stormcloak's agenda is not a racist one, although they of course have some bad apples.

Moving on to Ulfric himself, a lot of the points previously described can be applied to his so called "racism" as well. First, Ulfric did not segregate the Dunmer, the High King during the time of the Red Mountain exploding did.

http://www.uesp.net/...ree_of_Monument

"Let it stand in honor of those who had the strength and spirit to accept Skyrim's Offer "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

This shows that Ulfric has these elves in his city, and they don't have to pay taxes, and they are supposed to be self governed. Yet they were still allowed in the city, which Ulfric still lets them stay, and they don't have to give the Nords squat in return. The poor nords in the city aren't even given free room and board.

Edit: Some game dialogue reveals that the Dunmer possibly do actually pay taxes, so this deal may have been altered over time. I'm leaving this section in in case this is only taxes from businesses, since the Dunmer in question is a business owner. At any rate, the Dunmer were given a place to stay, and originally did not pay taxes, and originally didn't have to give the Nords anything, and they let the Grey Quarter go to crap with the oppertunity.

Here's a good argument against this that suggests the Dunmer do not in fact pay taxes.

/?p=22588230


Ulfric wouldn't allow Altmer in his city when he was tortured by the Thalmor if he hated elves, and he wouldn't allow Dark Elves to work in the market or own farmland if he was racist or prejudiced either. Now, one good point some people have brought up is his segregation of Argonians out of the city. The definition of racism is in fact discrimination of a race, but he is segregating them because of their people's history with the Dark elves, not because of some prejudice against them or a belief about their race. The Argonians are known for being suddenly overtaken by the hist. This is what happened when the Argonians attacked Morowind, presumably out of revenge for their slavery in Morrowind. Ulfric is in the middle of a civil war, and would be a fool to take chances of increasing civil unrest, especially if it could get violent. The Empire could easily take advantage of that with riots in the streets if this were to actually happen.



Also keep in mind that Ulfric says nothing racist or prejudiced, and there's no actual evidence of his racism or prejudice anywhere.



Indeed it is so I see no big loss at having the Empire collapse.

I meant on real armies, not animal planet.

You understand the concept of a metaphor? Anyway, do you remember your history teacher saying never fight on a two front war? This is what he was talking about.

arguing over War in this game:

Guess nobody heard of Sun Tzu art of war?

Agrre completely, and never said he is racist himself.

I did, that is what Hitler did, and lost WW2, but I digress, if one army stand and hold one position, and then five other smaller armies attack, the bigger one will prevail.

Its a good thing armies don't work that way then.

Edit: Sorry if I sound condescending. But the point is a moot one as armies maneuver around, which is why there being one big united army or several doesn't matter if the several are allies.

First comment, just made an account here, played TES:V for just 3 weeks, this is my conclusion,

The empire has been weakened by the Thalmor, and both sides chose a treaty because the war was very bloody.
Skyrim has always been a some kind of colony, but the Jarls and the High king ruled it with the influence of the Imperials for a long time. (Still no difference)
The Thalmor had religious grounds for attacking, so the Imperials decided to shut them up, and give 'em what they want, no Talos worshipping.
However, the Imperials don't force the anti-Talos law. (You've seen Heimskr in Whiterun right?)
The Imperials are trying to build another army to crush the Thalmor but now they got another problem.
Ulfric Stormcloak. His only reasons are the anti-Talos law, and an Independent Skyrim.
The guy is SO obsessed with power, he can't even wait for the great war to end. (Yes the treaty is just a break for the moment in my eyes)
And instead of helping the Imperials who are already trying to do the good things, he decides to attack them.
This guy has no right to start a rebellion. The people of Skyrim are not being mistreated, discriminated or robbed by the Imperials.
The Imperials protect Skyrim from the Thalmor.

This is why I never liked the Stormcloaks.

Imperial because Romans are awesome. Yes, I know they are not actually Romans.

A turd by any other name is just as pungent, colonelkillerbee.

You can try and focus on the boxes the stormcloak rebellion doesn't tick to technically qualify as the dictionary definition of racism, and in the meantime the non-nords of skyrim are feeling alienated, excluded and discriminated against based on their race by the stormcloaks.

There's a thing called subtext, if you go around in real life waiting for racism to tick all the boxes you'll be missing a lot of racism, racism that's genuinely out there poisoning the world and hurting people. That's what counts.

When you walk into windhelm and there's those 2 bums harrassing that dark elf, and we hear they wander down to the grey quarter drunk late at night and cause trouble (and apparently suffer no disciplinary action from the powers that be), this is the kind of crap that gets inspired by movements like the stormcloak rebellion, racism. Such ideologies breed racism, they're toxic and ugly and must be stamped out.

and warfare is not always two armies charging at each other with no strategy.

Sun Tzu's Art of War anyone?

It doesn't even tick A box, guy. I'm part african american. I know racism. Windhelm isn't racist. Besides a few people, and neither are the stormcloaks.

Do people read my posts? What do you think I was saying?

Welcome to the forums. Have you been to Valthume yet? Word of advice, do not listen to the spirit named Valdar. It is evil, and is a master of illusion. It would be best if you steer clear of a certain place called Valthume. I... assure you. Nothing to worry about.

then you should know that the Thalmor likely have multiple strategies planned and with the proper strategy, even the smallest army can crush the largest army, and numbers mean nothing.

Read my posts, please.

You were talking about warfare and numbers?

Yip, and I wasn't arguing on the side of the large army. In fact, the rising threat tells us the thalmor used maneuvering to fight, not numbers. Preaching to the choir here.

edit: However, I would never say numbers mean nothing. They most certainly do mean quite a bit in war.

Lure the enemy to Alinor/Summerset and break the boats as they are slaughtering the Thalmor. They get stuck, and the Thalmor can go about their business.

Naval warfare is most certainly not that simple.

That was an example of with the Right strategy, you do not need a large army to win.

Post Limit.