Stormcloaks and the Nordic Pantheon : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:32 pm

Considering that the worship of Talos was a big enough deal to the Nords that half of them were willing to split with the Empire rather than stop, supposing the Stormcloaks won the civil war, could they go even farther and reinstate the traditional Nordic Pantheon, like Wulfharth did after beating the Alessians at Glenumbria Moors?

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:52 am

I doubt it, considering most of them worship the Nine Divines. The only people who worship the Nordic pantheon as a whole are Golldir and Froki. The former does worship Talos but never says anything about the civil war, and the latter's grandson was saved by Hadvar.

A very poor decision, IMO. But oh well, I've [censored]ed about it enough.

» Tue May 08, 2012 3:35 pm

If they ever do, their Dibella needs a proper Nordy name.

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:16 am

If they ever do, their Dibella needs a proper Nordy name.

I always figured Dibella assimilated one or more folk goddess figures from the pre-Alessian Nordic pantheon, possibly other handmaidens of Kyne; we do know that Dibella used to have many, many different cults, which to me suggests she was very much an aggregate figure. Either that, or else Kyne and/or Mara had more overtly Dibellan traits originally, but for the sake of fitting into the Eight Divines those traits were attributed to Dibella. Maybe both happened. But I can't claim for certain and would be happy to be proven wrong.

Loranna

» Tue May 08, 2012 12:54 pm

I always figured Dibella assimilated one or more folk goddess figures from the pre-Alessian Nordic pantheon, possibly other handmaidens of Kyne; we do know that Dibella used to have many, many different cults, which to me suggests she was very much an aggregate figure. Either that, or else Kyne and/or Mara had more overtly Dibellan traits originally, but for the sake of fitting into the Eight Divines those traits were attributed to Dibella. Maybe both happened. But I can't claim for certain and would be happy to be proven wrong.

Loranna

Doesn't Dibella come straight from the Nordic pantheon? IIRC, she isn't found in most other pantheons.

» Tue May 08, 2012 10:59 am

For what it's worth, Varieties of Faith has her listed in the Nordic pantheon.

» Tue May 08, 2012 9:33 am

Doesn't Dibella come straight from the Nordic pantheon? IIRC, she isn't found in most other pantheons.

I don't recall off hand. Would be interesting if she did, actually.

EDIT: Ah, well, there we go then. Further proof that we Nords are actually quite awesome, even if we have a way of forgetting how intelligent, discerning, wise, beautiful, and careful we really are. (slams down a tankard of mead and goes looking for a strapping youth to help initiate into Dibella's worship

)

Loranna

» Tue May 08, 2012 8:00 am

Considering that the worship of Talos was a big enough deal to the Nords that half of them were willing to split with the Empire rather than stop, supposing the Stormcloaks won the civil war, could they go even farther and reinstate the traditional Nordic Pantheon, like Wulfharth did after beating the Alessians at Glenumbria Moors?

No, why would they? they are fighting to preserve the empires Pantheon as they believe the empire has turned it's back on it's roots (Talos).

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:06 am

No, why would they? they are fighting to preserve the empires Pantheon as they believe the empire has turned it's back on it's roots (Talos).

Talos wasn't as big a deal for the rest of the empire. Its probably not a coincidence that the Chapel of Talos is in Bruma, a basically a Nord city in Cyrodil. Also, if you look at it, they don't even seem to be that emotionally invested in the non-female Divines anyway. Actually, Arkey/Orkey is supposed to be an enemy of the Nords, yet he has a priest in every city.

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:04 am

No, why would they? they are fighting to preserve the empires Pantheon as they believe the empire has turned it's back on it's roots (Talos).

This. Most Nords in Skyrim are pretty imperialized now. They accepted Ysmir being called Talos in the first place. But asking them to drop Talos altogether was the last straw. They're basically fighting to preserve the Septim empires pantheon. You don't hear Ulfric nor any Stormcloaks talk about, to my recollection, any of the old Nordic Pantheon.

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:43 am

I don't recall off hand. Would be interesting if she did, actually.

EDIT: Ah, well, there we go then. Further proof that we Nords are actually quite awesome, even if we have a way of forgetting how intelligent, discerning, wise, beautiful, and careful we really are. (slams down a tankard of mead and goes looking for a strapping youth to help initiate into Dibella's worship :tongue:

)

Loranna

I found it interesting how in Riften, Haelga practicing her "Dibellan arts" all over town was considered shameful.

» Mon May 07, 2012 11:52 pm

I doubt that. The Nordic Pantheon is essentially the Eight Divines with different names. It's like replacing worship of God with worship of Yahweh.

» Tue May 08, 2012 10:20 am

I doubt that. The Nordic Pantheon is essentially the Eight Divines with different names. It's like replacing worship of God with worship of Yahweh.

Not really. Dibella and Mara, maybe, but the rest are completely different. Mercy is a different concept than ransom, and Tsun is about overcoming trials rather than simply working. Kyne's priestesses, in Bloodmoon, will attack if you interrupt their worship. As a whole, they are raging, bloodthirsty, and badass. The Nine Divines is centered around loving each other and boring stuff like serving your Emperor.

» Tue May 08, 2012 8:25 am

Considering that the worship of Talos was a big enough deal to the Nords that half of them were willing to split with the Empire rather than stop, supposing the Stormcloaks won the civil war, could they go even farther and reinstate the traditional Nordic Pantheon, like Wulfharth did after beating the Alessians at Glenumbria Moors?

I don't think that would happen since Talos is around now. The only one they really need to protect is him.

» Tue May 08, 2012 3:17 pm

Doesn't Dibella come straight from the Nordic pantheon? IIRC, she isn't found in most other pantheons.

She's a native deity yeah, my point was just that the name "Dibella" is far too italo-latiny for a Nordic goddess.

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:26 am

She's a native deity yeah, my point was just that the name "Dibella" is far too italo-latiny for a Nordic goddess.

She's named after a real person, Mary Jo DiBella, who is presumably of Italian ancestry.

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:43 am

It's left deliberately vague how much the "Nord Traditionalist" is an act when it comes to Ulfric. He definitely worships Talos, but he was a soldier in the Legion itself during the Great War. It's been a long time as part of the Empire, so some traditions may just be a part of Skyrim now. And beyond that, Ulfric is not a fool. He may have used or felt Talos worship as a justification of war, but if most Nords worship the Nine, would he alienate them by going hardcoe Ysgramor's companions animal-god-aspects? Doubtful. The Nine is just Nordic enough as long as Talos is prominent.

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:59 am

It really isn't a matter of Nord traditionalism, as Talos is a relatively new addition to the Divines. Talos worship only dates back to the reforging of the Empire at the beginning of the Third Era.

And rather more importantly, Talos worship is inseparable from participation in the Empire, which is the fundamental madness of the civil war in Skyrim. It's a strange basis for seceding from an Empire to complain that you aren't allowed to worship the spirit of the Empire.

» Tue May 08, 2012 6:29 am

I found it interesting how in Riften, Haelga practicing her "Dibellan arts" all over town was considered shameful.

That confused the hell out of me. I wish someone could explain how that makes any sense.

» Tue May 08, 2012 11:34 am

It really isn't a matter of Nord traditionalism, as Talos is a relatively new addition to the Divines. Talos worship only dates back to the reforging of the Empire at the beginning of the Third Era.

And rather more importantly, Talos worship is inseparable from participation in the Empire, which is the fundamental madness of the civil war in Skyrim. It's a strange basis for seceding from an Empire to complain that you aren't allowed to worship the spirit of the Empire.

It has more to do with the Empire conceding to the Thalmor but traditionalism is a good political weapon. Talos was a man before a god, and so the Empire saying that the man-god is not any longer worthy of worship is basically spitting in the face of humanity, at least that's how it could be spun.

Also, Nord tradition respects strength and courage, and they viewed the outlawing of Talos worship as weakness and cowardice. Again, it's all how you spin your rhetoric.

» Tue May 08, 2012 7:52 am

Talos himself says that the Empire is weak and that it's time for something new., so I doubt it's really part of his worship.

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:29 pm

What i dont understand is why the imperial faith mixed with a traditional faith seems to be true, for example alduin used to be a god in the nordic pantheon but now he is the sun of akatosh and that turns out to be true. Makes me wonder if Alessia didnt just create the Alessian Order for political reason, perhaps she was guided by the gods themselves in some way.

» Tue May 08, 2012 9:13 am

Talos himself says that the Empire is weak and that it's time for something new., so I doubt it's really part of his worship.

The correct posture for the worship of Talos is to place your foot upon Talos' neck. It's how he differs from the other Divines, who prefer mortals to approach them on their knees.

Has anyone noticed that in Skyrim, the priest of Arkay explains that old story about Arkay also having been a mortal? And if I remember correctly, that priest is a high elf. So it's transparently not the impossibility of a mortal becoming a god that they object to.

» Tue May 08, 2012 1:01 am

It's a man becoming a god, naturally. And of course it's all a scheme to remove Talos from the mythic.

» Tue May 08, 2012 1:37 pm

The correct posture for the worship of Talos is to place your foot upon Talos' neck. It's how he differs from the other Divines, who prefer mortals to approach them on their knees.

Has anyone noticed that in Skyrim, the priest of Arkay explains that old story about Arkay also having been a mortal? And if I remember correctly, that priest is a high elf. So it's transparently not the impossibility of a mortal becoming a god that they object to.

Well I don't know that the Thalmor should be taken as the average mentality even for Altmer.