I can't side with either of them because I like both Ralof and Hadvar.

Ralof- Because he was the first guy you saw in the game, and who basically kept you calm the whole ride, etc. He treated you, someone he barely knew, as a friend.

Hadvar- While his calling me "prisoner" was somewhat cold, he showed regret in me being kiled despite me not being on the list. If he were the captain, he would have likely let me go. As another poster said, he talked about the Empire as if it were a friend who was going through a rough patch. He even explained that you weren't even supposed to be on the cart with the Stormcloaks.

I'd say the divide between a general apathy towards foreigners with a few nationalist Jarls who consider their own people to be their sole duty is quite a massive leap away from religiously based calls of genocide coupled with a strong belief in racial superiority and purity.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dunmer_of_Skyrim

So, apparently Skyrim is an allegory to the muslim immigration to the Nordic countries, and Windhelm is Malm?. Now, who do you support? Let the race wars begin.

One thing that struck me about the thing with the Altmer storekeeper in Windhelm (other than that she smelt like a Thalmor agent) was that the cultural issues were mixed up with class. There are other Dunmer in Skyrim who are doing quite well for themselves- mages, huskarls, merchants, and do forth. The Dunmer and Argonians in Windhelm 'don't know how to get things done', by the standards of our snooty Altmer merchant, and don't seem to have much to sell other than their work, which isn't appreciated. I wonder whether they were destitute when they arrived, unlike other Dunmer who might have had wealth or connections from which to benefit, or whether the issue is simply that they are actively excluded (forced to live in a sewer and so forth).

Actually, I do recall a Dunmer in Windhelm that basically said something to the effect of "Most Dunmer are being whiny babies and should actually start working to be accepted." and he wasn't exactly very wealthy. Its certainly not the first time I heard that remark from another Mer.

I believe you're thinking of the stall-keeper who is either an Altmer or Bosmer. But there is at least one Dunmer that echoes the sentiment. One of the Arathel brothers I think.

I do stormcloaks if i'm a nord because their fighting for nordic values and tradition because the Empire took that away when they banned talos instead of continuing the war which the could have won considering the redguards were just as exhausted but fought for another 5 years and now they're thalmor free

Stormcloaks == Stormfront ( a white racist board, look it up )

I would not risk my life for either side, to be honest.

I've never been fond of the Imperial Empire, but we do have an understand...
They leave me alone, and I leave them alone. It had always been a wonderful relationship in the past.
But lately we've had a falling out.

Had I actually done something wrong I may have understood why they wanted my head.
But I can't think of a possible reason to warrant my execution. Nothing they'd know about, anyways.
Suppose I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. But that doesn't really justify it.
Makes me think how many other innocent people have died for their ridiculous cause.

If the Nords of Skyrim want to be free of Imperial tyranny, who am I to stand in their way?
I sympathize with them. I really do. Religious persecution has no place in Tamriel.
They can not force me to worship their false gods. And they defiantly wont force Nord savages to do the same.

To his credit, the Jarl Ulfric is a very smart man. Manipulative. A great politician.
Knows just how to rally the masses while keeping them in the dark about the real reasons for this civil war.


If I am forced to fight a war over nothing, I will chose the side that's gonna win.
The Thalmor.

...Holy [NUMINIT], how did it take me this long to see it?
Probably because I try to think as little about Stormfags as possible.

I love how the player is presented with a moral dilemma between two factions, where neither of them are exactly made up of wonderful people. It feels less generic good vs evil, with lots of moral shades of grey. It feels less like "who do I like more", and more "who do I dislike less?". It's really hard to choose between them both. I hate the way lots of the Stormcloaks treat elves, khajjit, argonians, and orcs especially... Originally I really liked the Stormcloaks viewing them pretty heroically until I learned of that. And then of course, the imperials are running all over the place trying to take over, and conquer everyone's homeland. This must also be awful for the dunmer either way, who recently felt like their homeland was being invaded... Then it was destroyed. Also in Morrowind argonians and dunmer (in general) had particularly strong grudges against each other.

I can't help but feel sorry for yet another group being invaded by the Empire, though I hate the way the Stormcloaks are in a different way. I particularly dislike how the Empire seems to be friendly towards the Thalmor who at the very least nose into other peoples affairs then get control issues, if anyone that specifically makes me dislike the Empire particularly strongly. Personally, I don't want either of the two factions taking over Skyrim. Imo they're both very oppressive factions in their own ways.

You were in the company of Ulfric Stormcloak, the leader of the rebellion, when you were captured. They simply deduced you were part of his group, perhaps newly-joined and didn't have a record of you.

Actually it seems the Dunmer prefer the Empire, if the random roadway encounters are anything to go by (Dunmer farmers always say they're going to join the legion because "a united Empire is better for everyone", while Redguard farmers always say they're going to join the rebellion because "Ulfric has the right of it").

Redguards have been saying that? Well, that makes my decision much more easier.

I have seen more Redguards in the Legion, though.

Pretty much got the notion that most of the Nords serving the Stormcloaks are racist idiots. That's not to say you wouldn't find the same racist idiots in the Imperial Legion. I've yet to hear about a city under Imperial control that segregates people based on race, however.

It's not apathy, it's ethnocentrism which wants to kill all the Imperials and then "take the fight to the Thalmor." They not just trying to gain independence. Apathy is the perceived state at the moment but hating elves is pretty much the chief aspect of Nordic heritage, generally displayed in a history of constant warfare with the Dunmer. It's not just the Jarls, it's the soldiers as well; they're all constantly remarking about the greatness of the Nord and it's no coincidence that arguably the chief Nordic artifact, Ysgramor's axe, has the express effect of "being especially effective against elves."

We like to think the Nords the underdog against the oppressive, racist Thalmor who want to destroy their religion, but do you really think the Nords would be any different if the situation were reversed? The Empire are the only ones who have ever striven for any sort of openness in these regards.

Meh, mer don't matter anyway. Why do I hate mer? It's a story from long long ago.

Ha, well I play a Breton, so I gotta look out for both sides.

The primary difference which influences a lot of the way that we perceive the Nords is that wiping out the Mer is not a mythological goal of humankind as it is in the case of the Thalmor. Essentially, the Nords are inclined to commit war crimes against the Mer because of a longstanding war/divide going back to Lorkhan and Auri-El. Systematic, planned out genocide, however, is not a feature of Nordic ideology. It is more based on fighting over the ideological dispute of Aurbis-CHIM vs. return to Aetherius/the state-of-being of the ancestors, plus thousands of years of warfare/revenge so that no one on the Nordic side even knows what they're fighting about anymore.

Similar, but not synonymous.

[EDIT]: Also note that the resentment of the Chimer was originally begun when they stopped Lorkhan from retrieving his Heart at Red Mountain. But then, I doubt that the Nords would have just peacefully walked in and taken it either...

Are you referring to Wulfharth? I never could get my head around the way the Nords and Orcs fit into the Battle of Red Mountain.


[edit] On topic: I read a book in the game, I forget its name, which is basically a racist rant by some nord about how the Dunmer in Windhelm are lazy and dirty like all Dark Elves, asking why they can't be like the Dunmer in Riften who are all well-adapted. It's obviously a paraody, intended to suggest that the issue is the situation in Windhelm. Really, I though the whole living in a sump of sewerage thing, like the Argonians who are forced to live outside, made the issue pretty clear. Likewise, the whole 'work hard and they'll respect you' line is pretty unbelievable, and also drawn from RL.

Ulfric remains me of Hitler kind of, the White-Gold Concordant is like the Treaty of Versailles

'We could have beaten them fair and square but we were stabbed in the back by mer at home'. That sort of thing?

Mind you- small MQ spoiler-

It's actually the only reason I haven't signed my character up for the Stormcloaks yet, having come to terms with the rest of their foibles. I'm just trying to figure out which side will hurt the Thalmor more, if victorious.

Keep in mind.